outside ceiling fans and receps

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JohnME

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I am installing ceiling fans in a covered farmers porch, open to the elements. Due to this I am requesting the home owner purchase fans rated for exterior use. I foresee this as being a pain in the you know what, tounge and grove pine paneling is the ceiling, and I will be required to run a new home run for these 2 fans to the basement panel. I am going to do a walk through tonight to give him an idea of a price.

Is there any quick and easy method to mount the octogon boxes and have them rated for the fans? Pardon my ignorance but I dont do much residential work, so if there is in fact a quick and easy mounting means I would appriciate the heads up.

Also per his request, 2 receps will be added at each end of the porch, GFI's of course, my question is in regards to the "in use covers". Do you typically use these in residential settings such as this? I dont like them myself and sure wouldnt want them on my porch.

I expect the bill to approach $500-600, im problably low on that.

Thanks for the advice on the boxes and in use covers.
 
Re: outside ceiling fans and receps

JohnME said:
Is there any quick and easy method to mount the octogon boxes and have them rated for the fans? Pardon my ignorance but I dont do much residential work, so if there is in fact a quick and easy mounting means I would appriciate the heads up.

Also per his request, 2 receps will be added at each end of the porch, GFI's of course, my question is in regards to the "in use covers". Do you typically use these in residential settings such as this? I dont like them myself and sure wouldnt want them on my porch.
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John, We always use the in-use covers in this type of application, I do believe its required now by the NEC but may be corrected on that one. I don't find the covers to be all that hard to look at and as an EC understand the value of using them for safety reasons.

As far as the fans go you will have to use a box that sits flush with the finished ceiling and will be required to use a fan rated box either "New Work" or "Old work." If you use an "Old Work" box with the expanding bars it shouldn't be all that tough to do as long as you can get access into the bay / between the ceiling joists as necessary. Hope this helps a bit.
 
Thanks Steve, I also thought they were required by the NEC but wasnt 100% sure.

About the fan box, without hacking the ceiling apart im not sure I can get to the joists to fasten the bar that the box hangs from. Im trying to avoid this as best I can, (tounge and grove pine makes it tough to patch). Guess im looking for options to avoid hacking.
 
This should be easy... no plumbing and other electric to worry about when installing the new boxes. :wink:

If you want to know the easy way to do it, go to the big box stores and ask someone there how to do it.

My advice is always "if it was easy, they would not need an electrician".
Do our industry and yourself proud, do a professional job, and charge for it.
 
If you use the "old work" style of fan box that speedystevie mentioned you install the box and bar through the hole you cut for the box, then tighten the spreader bar to lock it to the joists, then bolt the box on with the supplied hardware. All the work is completed through the box hole.
 
Thank you for your advice, I do agree, if it was easy anyone could do it, thats my motto. I figured it wouldnt hurt to ask to see if there was a better way to mount the fan then what I was aware of. You know, one of those new, things will never be the same, installation method :shock:
 
luckyshadow said:
If you use the "old work" style of fan box that speedystevie mentioned you install the box and bar through the hole you cut for the box, then tighten the spreader bar to lock it to the joists, then bolt the box on with the supplied hardware. All the work is completed through the box hole.
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Lucky, Thank you for elaborating. I sometimes forget the small stuff because I expect the person to know that, proven to not always be true though.
 
Lucky, thanks for that info I do appriciate it I will need to take a look at the supply house. I feel rather ignorant for asking such a question to be honest, but commerical is my thing I suppose. Thanks again.
 
I would use a hole saw on the tongue and grove pine for a fast and clean hole. (run it in reverse to score the hole before going forward)

If the fan has a large base you can forget the fan rated box and simply secure the fan itself to the 3/4" pine ceiling.
 
I've used the Arlington old work fan bracket/box a few times now. Its a lot sturdier than what you'll find at HD...

If you're bringing power to the porch corners, sneaking some UF or 1/2" PVC up along the sill just below the siding might be an easy way to get to the panel's general area without too much fanfare in the basement
 
77401 said:
iwire said:
If the fan has a large base you can forget the fan rated box and simply secure the fan itself to the 3/4" pine ceiling.
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Really?
Code reference for this?
:p
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Actually in my post I should have asked "What's the code reference that says we must always use a listed fan box?

I won't make anyone look for it. :)

314.27(D) Boxes at Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets. Where a box is used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan, the box shall be listed for the application and for the weight of the fan to be supported. The installation shall comply with 422.18.
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As you can see using a listed fan box is a design decision not a code requirement. 8)
 
Re: outside ceiling fans and receps

speedystevie said:
... We always use the in-use covers in this type of application, I do believe its required now by the NEC but may be corrected on that one.
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We're still on 1999 here. :) :( 410-57(a) requires weatherproof (but not in-use) recept covers for damp locations. 410-57(b) leaves the cover type up to the homeowner in wet locations (because it's governed by the intended use of the receptacle...)
 
iwire said:
If the fan has a large base you can forget the fan rated box and simply secure the fan itself to the 3/4" pine ceiling.
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Just be sure it's 3/4" T&G first. :) Most of the porch ceilings I've run into were either T&G beadboard or else beadboard paneling, nominally between 1/4" and 1/2" depending on the age of the house (3/8" is pretty common around here). The modern thin stuff won't hold much, if anything; the older, slightly thicker stuff is usually so worn that it won't hold much, either.

Note to OP: if it's an older house, the porch ceiling joists may be running parallel to the house instead of perpendicular. This can make fishing a new HR a major pain unless you take down a few courses of the beadboard...but I think maybe you already anticipated that. :wink:
 
It is true that a ceiling fan doesn't need to be supported by a fan box. However 300.15 makes it clear that a box shall be installed at each conductor splice point, etc. This location is, after all, a combustible location. It would be a stretch to consider a canopy one of the "removable covers" stated in 300.15(A)
Also if the porch is considered a damp location then an "in use" cover would not be required. 406.8(A)
2005 NEC
 
Thanks guys for all the help. I went to Lowes after I went to the homeowners tonight, got a steel bar joist that extends and locks between the joists just as Lucky mentioned, rated for 70 lbs, $10 each.

Getting the power to these fans will be a chore for sure. I am going to try to fish up the wall from the basement or sill area, remove a 1 or 2 shingles on the house (old nail on) and drill through the top plate of the wall, and if all goes well snake to the fan locations. We shall see, I think I am going to run into a lot of issues. The house is 1850's but im not sure about the farmers porch.
 
tincan44 said:
It is true that a ceiling fan doesn't need to be supported by a fan box. However 300.15 makes it clear that a box shall be installed at each conductor splice point, etc. This location is, after all, a combustible location. It would be a stretch to consider a canopy one of the "removable covers" stated in 300.15(A)
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Yes a box is required, I never said a 'box' was not required.

I said a listed fan box is not required.

It is much simpler in my opinion to use a standard box and secure the fan directly to the structure. Particular if the ceiling happens to be solid wood. 8)
 
If the plan is to use a large canopy, don't forget 410-13 (1996):

"Covering of Combustible Material at Outlet Boxes. Any combustible wall or ceiling finish exposed between the edge of a fixture canopy or pan and an outlet box shall be covered with noncombustible material."

Mark
 
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