Outside Hot Tub

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volt101

volt101

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New Hampshire
My question on 680.42(2002) is: If I get a call to wire an outside hot tub that is just off new garage. The owner also wants a dozen of receptacle outlets in the garage. So I plan on installing a sub panel in the garage, that is to feed the tub and receptacles, would be the way to go. Could this sub-panel be wired with SER, or would it have to be piped?

680.25 is in part II, 680.42 only excludes A and B not C.
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

We deal with several jururidictions in this area. One the city of tampa has required pipe to a hot tub or a pool since years ago the other still allows nm.I was told that changes are coming and that pipe would be required in this county.So I asked the AHJ and was told they haven`t decided if it will be enforced.But they enforce other parts of the NEC to suit the wants and needs.Caught between a rock and a hard place here.There is supposed to be a uniformed code I just want to know what and when it will be enforced and what dictates when the county has to adopt it ?????
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

SER to the panel and conduit to the tub.
680.42 states for outdoor installations to comply with sections I & II.
Section II, 680.21(A)(1) branch circuits for associated motors...to be in ...conduit.
The feed from the sub-panel to the tub is a branch circuit. The feeder to the sub-panel is not a branch circuit to the tub.
680.42(C) & 680.21(A)(4) apply to the interior branch circuit wiring as well as the feed to the sub in this case.

[ August 27, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: speedypetey ]
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

In my opinion the feeder would need to be installed in an approved raceway (RMC, IMC, EMT, RNC, ENT). I believe 680.42(C) only applies to the wiring between the panel and the tub.
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

So since the feeder is the wiring method between a panel and a panel, and has nothing to do with the tub, what is the justification for a raceway?

My point in refrencing the two articles was that the wiring betwen panels was all interior so even if one considers the feeder a tub branch circuit, which it's not, it would fall under those two articles and not need a raceway.

[ August 27, 2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: speedypetey ]
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

The funny thing about this topic is, a week before, I get a permit for the garage only, then I wire the hot after pulling the permit a while later....We wouldn't need to have this thread.
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

I remain unconvinced as to the requirement of conduit in this application. (Although that can change!)

680.25(A) does say that feeders shall be installed in rigid, intermediate, nonmetallic conduit, liquidtight nonmetallic, etc. with the exception for an interior existing feeder to be cable, but does not mention ONE-FAMILY dwellings.

680.42(C)recognizes any wiring method in chapter 3 in the interior of a ONE-FAMILY DWELLING.

680.21(A)4 also recognizes any Chapter 3 wiring method for motors in the interior of a ONE-FAMILY dwelling or associated accessory bldg.

Maybe the one-family dwelling is the key in this issue. At any rate, if an article that seems so clear as 680.42(C) can be over-ridden by another without reference, there could be a need for additional clarification in the code. Also, it would seem to me that the conduit would be needed on the outside of the bldg. for protection, weather, etc. and would have a lesser requirement on the interior.

Buck
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

Originally posted by volt102:
The funny thing about this topic is, a week before, I get a permit for the garage only, then I wire the hot after pulling the permit a while later....We wouldn't need to have this thread.
Click to expand...
Volt, my first question is how can you be an inspector and also do electrical work? Are the 2 clearly in different jurisdictions.

And as an inspector, what is your interpretation??? SER or 'piped'??
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

Possibly the reason one family dwelling is not mentioned in 680.25 is that it applies to all occupancies. In 680.21(A), I believe section (1) sets the context when it starts by saying ?The branch circuits?. In 680.42(C) it refers to wiring methods for the ?connection? to equipment. In both cases, I think the requirements are for branch circuit wiring and not feeders. JMO. What I am not clear on is why pipe is required instead of SER.
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

680.21(A)(1) does reference branch circuits but also adds "other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section."

In 680.42(C), the reference to "connection" to equiptment, permits any wiring method in Chapter 3 in the interior of a one-family dwelling.
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

In 680.42(C), the reference to "connection" to equipment, permits any wiring method in Chapter 3 in the interior of a one-family dwelling.

This is my question. You are expressly permitted to wire a tub under Chap.3 when inside the building. Yet, install a sub-panel inside to feed the tub and you are made to run conduit to that panel? This is nuts. :roll:
In fact I have wired literally dozens of tubs from newly installed sub-panels, to the required disconnect outside. The subs were wired via SER or NM and the tub wired with NM to an inside box to conduit to the outside disco. Either that or conduit right out of the sub.
Every one was passed with no problems or questions.

I'll agree, is this right? Is it code? I feel it is.
Maybe our AHJ also thinks this is a contradictory part of the code and agrees with me.

How do you all feed a non-service panel to feed pool or tub equipment. Do you all pipe from the main to the sub? Across the whole house? I know VERY often this is next to impossible.
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

I can see the need to feed a sub panel using conduit in a building other than a dwelling. An example might be the electrical room at a public swimming pool. Volt101's installation is at a one-family dwelling and it seems to me that this is what is described in 680.42(C)

Buck
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

Buck,

As stated before 680.25 is in part II, 680.42 only excludes A and B not C.
And what is described in C sounds a lot like the branch circuit that extends from the sub-panel to the tub.
 
Re: Outside Hot Tub

Volt 102
I see what you are saying in 680.42.(A)&(B),(C)not included.

You may have a cord connected hot tub outside, romex on the interior of the house or garage to the sub-panel, but from the sub-panel back to the service panel it must be conduit or per 680.25(A).

This seems to be what the article is saying in spite of my thinking otherwise.

Buck
 
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