Overhead Water Lines....

[jcameron]

Hi every one. This is my first post, so if it's in the wrong spot please let me know.

I work for an electric cooperative and we've come upon a...situation, with a local campground. The owner of the campground has taken what is basically an up-jumped non-metal water hose and tied it to the poles and even better, he's tied it to the overhead triplex. This "water line" has various pinholes in it that are spraying water on the line and he's used everything from, no joke, bailing wire, zip ties, electrical tape, etc. to tie it to the triplex. Is there anything in the code that would deal with this? We can't find anything and he refuses to do anything with it until we can. These poles are owned by him but we definitely feel like there is a matter of safety involved.

**If it helps, the line has metal connectors at the ends and metal hose clamps attached to it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Welcome to the forum.

I hope someone can visual what you are saying cause I cannot. What do the overhead lines have to do with the water pipes?

 

[K8MHZ]

It sounds like someone took a hose and strung it between two poles and used the triplex between the two as a messenger cable for the hose.

 

[jcameron]

Over head lines

Over head lines

I thought I was pretty succinct when I stated that he has tied the water line to the triplex? Should I have worded that different?

Welcome to the forum.

I hope someone can visual what you are saying cause I cannot. What do the overhead lines have to do with the water pipes?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I thought I was pretty succinct when I stated that he has tied the water line to the triplex? Should I have worded that different?

I wasn't certain you were using a hose to tie something to something or what. I think you have a water pipe that is up in the air attached to the overhead lines and that pipe is used as a water sprinkler. Is that correct.

If so that is a non-no, IMO...

396.30 Messenger.
(A) Support. The messenger shall be supported at dead
ends and at intermediate locations so as to eliminate tension
on the conductors. The conductors shall not be permitted to
come into contact with the messenger supports or any
structural members, walls, or pipes.

 

[north star]

@ ~ @

jcameron,

Let's start with some basic information.
What Codes are being used in your area
[ i.e. - the `09, ...`12 or `15 IRC or IBC ? ].
Also, which electrical code edition is applicable ?

@ ~ @

 

[zbang]

Is this before or after the service point? If it's before, I would think this comes under NESC. And if it's before and the coop owns the line, they ought to have the say on what's attached to their wires.

 

[jcameron]

I wasn't certain you were using a hose to tie something to something or what. I think you have a water pipe that is up in the air attached to the overhead lines and that pipe is used as a water sprinkler. Is that correct.

If so that is a non-no, IMO...

It's actually one of our members and he's using the water line to run water to individual camp sites. You are correct, he has run a water line up in the air and he's tied it to the triplex. He's not using it as a sprinkler though, I was just pointing out the quality of hose he was using.

 

[jcameron]

Is this before or after the service point? If it's before, I would think this comes under NESC. And if it's before and the coop owns the line, they ought to have the say on what's attached to their wires.

Unfortunately, it's after the service point, so he owns it. It just doesn't seem quite safe, you know? It's tied to the overhead line and it's leaking water every where. Very hodge podge kind of thing. He's used every thing from zip ties to bailing wire to tie it to the triplex.

 

[jcameron]

@ ~ @

jcameron,

Let's start with some basic information.
What Codes are being used in your area
[ i.e. - the `09, ...`12 or `15 IRC or IBC ? ].
Also, which electrical code edition is applicable ?

@ ~ @

I'm going to preface this answer with a caveat. I've just started learning the code and my boss felt like this situation would be a good one to get my feet wet. So, if I miss something bare with me.

As far as which edition is applicable, that's what we were wondering? We're not even sure if something like this is addressed in the code books...?

We're using the '14 NEC book.

 

[kwired]

As a general rule you can't support other items from wiring methods, though I seem to be having trouble finding you a specific code reference that says that. I looked in art 110 and 300 (where I expected to find something) but so far no luck. Maybe look in applicable wiring methods section(s) in chapter 3? Messenger supported wiring section don't really say anything either though.

 

[north star]

% ~ %

jcameron,

I am asking what, if any, other construction codes are in place.
Such as the Plumbing Codes, possible the Residential Code,
and not just the electrical code.

In this particular application \ jurisdiction, ...what codes are
adopted ?

% ~ %

 

[jcameron]

% ~ %

jcameron,

I am asking what, if any, other construction codes are in place.
Such as the Plumbing Codes, possible the Residential Code,
and not just the electrical code.

In this particular application \ jurisdiction, ...what codes are
adopted ?

% ~ %

Ahhh, gotcha! I appreciate you baring with me on this. I should explain better. It's not a residential account. The person I'm talking about is running a seasonal rv campground that he developed on his own and when I say it's in the middle of nowhere, man, I mean it. He has between 2 & 3,000 people come through each year, though. We are in Missouri and I've been told that we are a non-inspection state, so 90-95% do whatever they want since no one's coming to check on them until some one gets hurt.

 

[north star]

@ ~ @

jcameron,

So are you saying that there are no adopted codes
in place, with which to enforce anything ?
Another way of asking the question, what [ exactly ]
Codes or Standards are enforceable in your application ?

Thanks !

@ ~ @

 

[jcameron]

@ ~ @

jcameron,

So are you saying that there are no adopted codes
in place, with which to enforce anything ?
Another way of asking the question, what [ exactly ]
Codes or Standards are enforceable in your application ?

Thanks !

@ ~ @

You are correct, nothing is in place.

 

[north star]

# ~ #

jcameron,

I'm not trying to be snarky or disrespectful,
...if nothing has been adopted in that area, and
regarding your original post, what do you reasonably
think can be enforced ? :?

Also, ...just for a moment, let's look outside the
proverbial "electrical box" at your problem.
What other Codes or Standards might be an issue
with your application ?.....Since there does not
seem to be anything related to the Messenger
Wire, what about the potable water line itself ?
"IF" the International Plumbing Code or another
Plumbing Code were actually adopted and in-place,
you could cite Section 605.3 [ RE: `15 IPC ] -
Water Service Pipe......This particular Code
section requires the water service piping to meet
a minimum standard, which in your application,
...it clearly does not....... There are other
requirements about fully supporting the potable
water service piping as well.

Also, are there any Zoning ordinances in-place ?
Does the county in which this camp is located
not have any minimum Standards, or Fire Marshall ?
Section 110.1 in the `12 International Fire Code
would allow the Fire Official to render an
interpretation of unsafe conditions on the premises,
and to have those conditions removed.

If you want to discuss this topic some more, in a
non-electrical Forum, then I would encourage you
to go to: The Building Codes Forum, at this Link:
https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/

Thanks ! :thumbsup:


# ~ #

 

[jcameron]

# ~ #

jcameron,

I'm not trying to be snarky or disrespectful,
...if nothing has been adopted in that area, and
regarding your original post, what do you reasonably
think can be enforced ? :?

Also, ...just for a moment, let's look outside the
proverbial "electrical box" at your problem.
What other Codes or Standards might be an issue
with your application ?.....Since there does not
seem to be anything related to the Messenger
Wire, what about the potable water line itself ?
"IF" the International Plumbing Code or another
Plumbing Code were actually adopted and in-place,
you could cite Section 605.3 [ RE: `15 IPC ] -
Water Service Pipe......This particular Code
section requires the water service piping to meet
a minimum standard, which in your application,
...it clearly does not....... There are other
requirements about fully supporting the potable
water service piping as well.

Also, are there any Zoning ordinances in-place ?
Does the county in which this camp is located
not have any minimum Standards, or Fire Marshall ?
Section 110.1 in the `12 International Fire Code
would allow the Fire Official to render an
interpretation of unsafe conditions on the premises,
and to have those conditions removed.

If you want to discuss this topic some more, in a
non-electrical Forum, then I would encourage you
to go to: The Building Codes Forum, at this Link:
https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/

Thanks ! :thumbsup:


# ~ #

I thank you for your help and think your answers have been great, so far. The part we were looking to enforce would have been any electrical code that applied to the situation...since we are in the area and can handle that. No one can seem to find one that applies to them hanging their water line off of the overhead power line. I don't think I'm getting across how remote this place is in regards to any kind of safety inspections. Far enough from civilization that they don't have a fire marshal. If this area has ever seen any kind of inspector it only would have been our pole inspector. Thanks again for your help!

 

[north star]

$ = $

jcameron,

Even if someone were to find an applicable
NEC Article that applied to your application,
...as you have stated, nothing has been
adopted to enforce.

The owner' insurance carrier may have a
different view on that though.......Insurance
companies are all about reducing losses
& mitigating [ potential ] hazards.......Also,
television & social media lizards might want
a juicy story on this [ Hint, Hint, Hint, ...Wink,
Wink, Wink ].......If someone can actually
[ possibly ] effect the Owner's pocketbook,
he might just change the situation. :happyyes:

$ = $

 

[jcameron]

$ = $

jcameron,

Even if someone were to find an applicable
NEC Article that applied to your application,
...as you have stated, nothing has been
adopted to enforce.

The owner' insurance carrier may have a
different view on that though.......Insurance
companies are all about reducing losses
& mitigating [ potential ] hazards.......Also,
television & social media lizards might want
a juicy story on this [ Hint, Hint, Hint, ...Wink,
Wink, Wink ].......If someone can actually
[ possibly ] effect the Owner's pocketbook,
he might just change the situation. :happyyes:

$ = $

Dang...did I mention how awesome you are? I really, really appreciate your help! Like I said in an earlier post, this is my first foray into the land of code enforcement and you have definitely helped with that. I'm going to pass on your...musing..on the subject. I'm sure it's going to make others around here smile as much as it did me.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I thank you for your help and think your answers have been great, so far. The part we were looking to enforce would have been any electrical code that applied to the situation...since we are in the area and can handle that. No one can seem to find one that applies to them hanging their water line off of the overhead power line. I don't think I'm getting across how remote this place is in regards to any kind of safety inspections. Far enough from civilization that they don't have a fire marshal. If this area has ever seen any kind of inspector it only would have been our pole inspector. Thanks again for your help!

Does the section I quoted earlier not apply?