Ow. on so many different levels...

[Fulthrotl]

anyone have any information on what went south with this one?

one electrocution was between boats, the other two were with shore power.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/04/12565187-3-children-electrocuted-while-swimming-in-lakes-3-drown-in-river

 

[hurk27]

I think this statement from a man who had jumped into the water can give us a clue as to "where" the current was coming from, but not the "why"

"I know when they cut off the electricity from the boat. I didn't feel the electricity anymore," he said.

in speculation ( which is all we can do from our computers) one could guess at lost neutral, EGC's and neutrals not separated, voltage drop on the service neutral feeding the service to the boats, and many other reasons, obviously there was a voltage on this boat that was disconnected when they shut off the service, in looking at the photo we see conductive metal pontoons, and we can assume this was the path, but what ahead of this point is anyones guess without more info.

Lets just hope this gets investigated to the point that laws or enforcement of code is straighten in and around where boats are connected to shore power, tragedies like this should be investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

 

[GUNNING]

Id like "what is a GFCI for a $1000 Johnny."

Id like "what is a GFCI for a $1000 Johnny."

My guess is stray voltage.:slaphead:

Or perhaps becoming part of the live electrical circuit.

 

[ritelec]

fulthrotl.......you are so involved with all!!!...............need help????
you're too cool................................

rich

 

[ritelec]

My guess is stray voltage.

aliens

 

[ritelec]

please note. i'm not being light of the seriousness. my condolences. be safe all.

 

[ritelec]

read the story again............to sick and on too many different levels as noted. wow.

 

[Article 90.1]

This is not too far from me. there was an article in today's paper stating that they found the cause, but the investigators are not yet releasing it to the public.

I feel awful for the victims, and yes I am guessing that they are victims as I have a gut feeling that someone's negligence is to blame.

Tennessee has two levels of electrical licensing, the LLE and the CE. In my experience just about anyone who has roped a house can pass the LLE test and be licensed here, the CE is a bit tougher of a test, but not as difficult as the NJ licensing exam. Unfortunately, in my experience many of the LLE's that I have worked with or met are not what I would consider to be qualified electricians.

Secondly this marina is not likely in a city area and, therefore, the permitting and inspection requirements tend to be very lax. It also seems that everyone has an uncle who is a retired EE from Alcoa, or some other plant and does "side work" but does't have a clue when it comes to mechanical execution of work and NEC compliance or understanding. The bottom line is that electrical licensing is not properly enforced in Tennessee.

What does all of this mean? My bet is that someone, either on the craft, or at the marina performed a below standard installation, maintenance, or repair.

I'll post a link with an updated article from a local paper if one becomes available.


As an aside there was a similar incidence to this one in 2010 nearby. EC&M also had an interesting forensic article on another similar incidence that, if memory serves me, was a pinched neutral on the craft itself.

 

[hurk27]

This is not too far from me. there was an article in today's paper stating that they found the cause, but the investigators are not yet releasing it to the public.

I feel awful for the victims, and yes I am guessing that they are victims as I have a gut feeling that someone's negligence is to blame.

Tennessee has two levels of electrical licensing, the LLE and the CE. In my experience just about anyone who has roped a house can pass the LLE test and be licensed here, the CE is a bit tougher of a test, but not as difficult as the NJ licensing exam. Unfortunately, in my experience many of the LLE's that I have worked with or met are not what I would consider to be qualified electricians.

Secondly this marina is not likely in a city area and, therefore, the permitting and inspection requirements tend to be very lax. It also seems that everyone has an uncle who is a retired EE from Alcoa, or some other plant and does "side work" but doesn't have a clue when it comes to mechanical execution of work and NEC compliance or understanding. The bottom line is that electrical licensing is not properly enforced in Tennessee.

What does all of this mean? My bet is that someone, either on the craft, or at the marina performed a below standard installation, maintenance, or repair.

I'll post a link with an updated article from a local paper if one becomes available.


As an aside there was a similar incidence to this one in 2010 nearby. EC&M also had an interesting forensic article on another similar incidence that, if memory serves me, was a pinched neutral on the craft itself.

So very true in many areas of our country, and the fact that many times the real cause is many times missed as in the Coka Cola portable concession stand incident HERE where a custodian was severely injured from a shock he received, but the final judgment was against Coca Cola because they didn't install a ground rod at the trailer, we discussed this in a thread the led up to a few threads that proved that a ground rod was not the cause nor would it have even helped, the cause was because the EGC in the shed where the trailer was plugged in at was not connected and there was no fault return path or GFCI in place either of which would have prevented his injuries here is a link that leads to the discussion that took place HERE

And a great thread that followed that shows how little ground rod do anything for safety HERE

There are to many who still think a ground rod is the holy grail to electrical safety, and this is a myth that is perported over and over again even by those who think they know better.

So while many of these incidents are investigated, the investigations are done by those who do not know what they are really looking for or understand how to follow the current back to the source to properly understand how it really happened, and this mis identification of the wrong problem leads to mis-guided problems being addressed as the problem when it was something else
You cant fix a problem if the problem is not identified correctly, and here on Mike Holt forum we see this many times.

We need to get better at identifying the real causes so a real fix can be found!

 

[Fulthrotl]

fulthrotl.......you are so involved with all!!!...............need help????
you're too cool................................

rich

more a case of just wondering.

i was a witness on a manslaughter issue a number of years ago,
and i've gotten calls on swimming pool and fountain bonding that have
perplexed folk.

and i remember a 75 foot aluminum chris craft in lido yacht basin
that was leaking 15 amps of 120 VAC into the water, and ate up
everyone's zincs and props for about 100 yards.

didn't do the aluminum hull on the chris craft any good, either.
it was better than the zincs, wherever the fouling paint was
chipped or damaged, at sacrificing itself.

the manslaughter case ended with the property owner going
to prison, and he was in his 60's.

the chris craft ended with the owner shearing off two pilings and a
dock finger, and deciding that a 75' flatbottom boat with 4' of draft
built for freshwater didn't belong in the ocean. he flogged it to someone
in san pedro. i heard it sunk a few years later.

to the poster who lives nearby, i'd be interested if you let us know
how it turns out... thanks.

 

[weressl]

And a great thread that followed that shows how little ground rod do anything for safety HERE

There are to many who still think a ground rod is the holy grail to electrical safety, and this is a myth that is perported over and over again even by those who think they know better.

So let me ask a question.

If the casing of an electrical equipment is connected to a ground rod and the phase wire makes an incidental connection to the case, but there is no EGC present - broken - will you be safe to contact the casing or not?

 

[hurk27]

So let me ask a question.

If the casing of an electrical equipment is connected to a ground rod and the phase wire makes an incidental connection to the case, but there is no EGC present - broken - will you be safe to contact the casing or not?

I hope you already know this, but no you will not be safe, ground rods provide no safety in voltage below 600 volts and very little above that if it can't open a OCPD which it is not designed to do.

 

[stickboy1375]

So let me ask a question.

If the casing of an electrical equipment is connected to a ground rod and the phase wire makes an incidental connection to the case, but there is no EGC present - broken - will you be safe to contact the casing or not?

What's your opinion on that?

 

[ritelec]

more a case of just wondering.

Thank you for sharing!

Wow...........wuz up with that???

 

[jumper]

Wow...........wuz up with that???

It seems pretty clear, electrodes(rods) have nothing to do with opening a OCPD.

 

[GUNNING]

Bonding or Grounding?

Bonding or Grounding?

Im thinking the lake water wasn't grounded either, or maybe that is bonded.

How do you bond a lake? With a ground rod?

 

[K8MHZ]

Im thinking the lake water wasn't grounded either, or maybe that is bonded.

How do you bond a lake? With a ground rod?

[SIZE=+1]We do not know the exact wiring errors or ground faults that created some of the incidents listed below, but it can be assumed that an energized AC conductor (L1 or L2) came in contact with a bonded (grounded) metal object, and coincidently, this object was not connected to the shore bonding (grounding) system. This caused a voltage to appear on bonded under-water metal gear, creating a lethal field around the boat. This was true in every case that was investigated.[/SIZE]

http://www.qualitymarineservices.net/electric_shock_drowning_incident_list.html

 

[ritelec]

It seems pretty clear, electrodes(rods) have nothing to do with opening a OCPD.

"ground fault".....should not it have tripped the breaker?..... would the picture not illustrate a dead short.....ground is ground no?

Maybe I should consider the word effective with more weight???

One more thing..........he should have knee pads on..........the knee damage could be greater than the shock.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

"ground fault".....should not it have tripped the breaker?..... would the picture not illustrate a dead short.....ground is ground no?

A connection to earth is no where near a dead short. A typical ground rod will not trip a 20 amp breaker when you connect the hot wire to it. It is not grounding, but bonding that clears faults. You need a low impedance path back to the source, not to earth. In our grounded systems, that path is via the Equipment Grounding Conductor, to the main bonding jumper to the grounded conductor.

Maybe I should consider the word effective with more weight??? ...

You need an effective fault clearing path. and effective connection to the earth does not do much to protect people from shock or to clear faults.

 

[GUNNING]

Blame it on global warming

Blame it on global warming

Could it be that ground rods were once long enough to reach the ground water table and that was the connection back to the source? But because of the recent weather conditions and global warming and the drought conditions, ground rods are no longer interconnected by the moisture that once was normal in the ground? By a lake I can see, but maybe the moisture content is not high enough to overcome the resistance and reach back to the source. Then there are the band aides like the GFCI's and changes in grounding and bonding. Why not make all mains GFCI protected and drop the individual branch circuits. (I can hear the pimply mfg internet rep choking on his diet coke)

Maybe there should be a code change to 10 foot long ground rods instead of 2 eight footers or, like utilities, drive 40 footers then maybe the lakes would get grounded.

Maybe the utilities should have to ground all the bodies of water, then there wouldn't be these ... accidents.

I do realize that phase to phase, a GFCI would be useless in this instance; but it might have had a better chance to fault out than a normal 220 breaker.