Owner wants cad files

[gadfly56]

If you include an electronic version of the seal (is that acceptable anywhere??), you would need to lock the file so that the seal could not be taken to apply to an edited version of the CAD file.
If only wet ink or embossed seal on paper is recognized, then locking the CAD file is not as critical.

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You can use an electronic seal in NY and, I believe, now in NJ. The way we do it is print to PDF, flatten the file and upload it to the project directory. Since this is a huge collaborative project with a dozen or so MEP firms working in Revit models, we remove the seal from the model sheets after we do the print.

 

[Strathead]

If you include an electronic version of the seal (is that acceptable anywhere??), you would need to lock the file so that the seal could not be taken to apply to an edited version of the CAD file.
If only wet ink or embossed seal on paper is recognized, then locking the CAD file is not as critical.

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I don't think the "sealed" version would be CAD. It would usually be a PDF. the CAD would be separate.

 

[Andy Delle]

When ever I use a third party engineering firm, I always require native CAD files as well as any block or symbol libraries used in the drawings. I have no problem signing an NDA not to re-use the symbol or blocks outside of the project drawing set.

The reason is maintenance. I want to be able to make future modifications and keep the documentation up to date. Any professional should understand that.

 

[Gshell82]

I want to be able to make future modifications and keep the documentation up to date. Any professional should understand that.

Here is another example of engineers lowering their self worth and putting no value on their craft. It drives me nuts. Why are financial guys (Wall St.) so much smarter than us and obliterate their clients with fees and they are all millionaires??

You want CAD files.. Charge a big fee for that! You want to make ANY future modification? Charge a big fee for that!

Let's get smart people and stop being stupid with our work.

 

[Strathead]

Here is another example of engineers lowering their self worth and putting no value on their craft. It drives me nuts. Why are financial guys so much smarter than us and obliterate their clients with fees and they are all millionaires??

You want CAD files.. Charge a big fee for that! You want to make ANY future modification? Charge a big fee for that!

Let's get smart people and stop being stupid with our work.

It is called capitalism. If the CAD files are requested in the up front documentation then any Engineer gets to decide how much he is going to charge and if it is too much he will lose the job.

 

[Ingenieur]

Here is another example of engineers lowering their self worth and putting no value on their craft. It drives me nuts. Why are financial guys (Wall St.) so much smarter than us and obliterate their clients with fees and they are all millionaires??

You want CAD files.. Charge a big fee for that! You want to make ANY future modification? Charge a big fee for that!

Let's get smart people and stop being stupid with our work.

it is what the market will bear
someone will undercut you
not a lot of poor engineers out there

 

[Besoeker]

When I do a job I only send pdf's and hard copies never the native cad files.

This owner's architect is asking for the cad files to do some "conflict checking" which is strange bc this is only 2D and not BIM.

Would you guys send the cad files or just say no? I wouldn't want them having easy access to proprietary design documents.


Thanks

Does the contract require it?

 

[ggunn]

My wife has similar concerns. She is a graphic designer and a power user of the Adobe Creative Suite. When customers contract her to produce a design, her deliverable is the pdf file, not her Photoshop, Illustator, etc. work files. If a client wants those it will cost them a lot more.

 

[Andy Delle]

Here is another example of engineers lowering their self worth and putting no value on their craft. It drives me nuts. Why are financial guys (Wall St.) so much smarter than us and obliterate their clients with fees and they are all millionaires??

You want CAD files.. Charge a big fee for that! You want to make ANY future modification? Charge a big fee for that!

Let's get smart people and stop being stupid with our work.

Fine, name your price. If it's reasonable and/or your firm has an excellent track record it shouldn't be a problem. But if you charge some "stick it to them" price, you will probably not get the job because there will be other firms that want the business.

There's nothing wrong with a reasonable fee. But IMO, companies have the right to repair and modify systems they paid to have designed.

 

[Strathead]

My wife has similar concerns. She is a graphic designer and a power user of the Adobe Creative Suite. When customers contract her to produce a design, her deliverable is the pdf file, not her Photoshop, Illustator, etc. work files. If a client wants those it will cost them a lot more.

Bottom line is that the person wanting the files should put it in the up front conditions. Then it is competitively bid. I don't see where the CAD should increase the cost significantly. The designer is putting the cost to develop the drawings in to the bid. It isn't like they are doing it for free. Even with your wife. There can be legalize about what they can use it for so in her case, the usefulness of the files would likely be less, but it is still the decision to be made up front.

 

[drktmplr12]

Fine, name your price. If it's reasonable and/or your firm has an excellent track record it shouldn't be a problem. But if you charge some "stick it to them" price, you will probably not get the job because there will be other firms that want the business.

There's nothing wrong with a reasonable fee. But IMO, companies have the right to repair and modify systems they paid to have designed.

i agree 100% companies should have the right to repair and modify, if it has been negotiated and their staff are trained on the maintenance and operation of said equipment. it might not be fair to the mfr if an owner attempts to hold them liable for non-performance of equipment when the owner made modifications that impacted performance without notifying the mfr.

just my opinion.

 

[drktmplr12]

My wife has similar concerns. She is a graphic designer and a power user of the Adobe Creative Suite. When customers contract her to produce a design, her deliverable is the pdf file, not her Photoshop, Illustator, etc. work files. If a client wants those it will cost them a lot more.

graphic design is very different. with the source file distributed she would no longer be required to make any small change. for a photoshop/creative suite source file it should cost alot more. this is not the case for building design. the owner can't "do" anything with building models, except use as maintenance tool or as a source file for a new project. even then an engineer will be required to sign and seal any improvements, thereby owning the information on the plan sheet, regardless of where it came from.

nothings to stop the owner from giving the engineer the PDF and asking them to underlay a scaled and rasterized image in lieu of a vector model. or even trace the rasterized image. easy work for any cad tech worth $14.00/hr.

 

[Andy Delle]

i agree 100% companies should have the right to repair and modify, if it has been negotiated and their staff are trained on the maintenance and operation of said equipment. it might not be fair to the mfr if an owner attempts to hold them liable for non-performance of equipment when the owner made modifications that impacted performance without notifying the mfr.

just my opinion.

Unless said equipment or system is leased, the manufacture or vendor has no say in who can repair or modify it. Now of course unauthorized repair and modification will void any warranty and hold the vendor harmless, it still isn't the vendors or manufactures call as to who can repair.

Who ever holds title to the equipment or system can do what ever the H they want to it. No, you as a manufacture or vendor don't have to support it anymore, but this idea of no user service really gets to me. If you sold it to the customer, it's no longer your property!

 

[gadfly56]

graphic design is very different. with the source file distributed she would no longer be required to make any small change. for a photoshop/creative suite source file it should cost alot more. this is not the case for building design. the owner can't "do" anything with building models, except use as maintenance tool or as a source file for a new project. even then an engineer will be required to sign and seal any improvements, thereby owning the information on the plan sheet, regardless of where it came from.

nothings to stop the owner from giving the engineer the PDF and asking them to underlay a scaled and rasterized image in lieu of a vector model. or even trace the rasterized image. easy work for any cad tech worth $14.00/hr.

In this respect, BIM's are more bullet-proof than your standard CAD files. First, it's a one off. How many Empire State Buildings is someone going to build? And the whole point of the BIM process it to hand the owner a live model of his building. It wouldn't be that easy to cookie-cutter a BIM model of a Starbucks for example, because there is a lot of geographical information usually embedded in the model. But a 2D CAD drawing, all you do is change the site plan page and do as many as you want, as long as they are all identical.

 

[Strathead]

In this respect, BIM's are more bullet-proof than your standard CAD files. First, it's a one off. How many Empire State Buildings is someone going to build? And the whole point of the BIM process it to hand the owner a live model of his building. It wouldn't be that easy to cookie-cutter a BIM model of a Starbucks for example, because there is a lot of geographical information usually embedded in the model. But a 2D CAD drawing, all you do is change the site plan page and do as many as you want, as long as they are all identical.

Even a cookie cutter business, which Starbucks is a bad example of because it is rarely a stand alone building, is not exactly the same. CAD has add ons that allow you t change a PDF in to a vector already. Let the Engineers and the Architects think their files are worth a huge chunk of money, they will find out otherwise when the market lets them know. I remember when they thought they could sell a $.50 CD of the plans for $150 a copy. that lasted about three weeks.