P.E. Exam requirements

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Well I had to back off for an hour to cool off before replying. Let me turn this around and say what if all electricians had to have at least an ASEE degree before they can take the electrical test, and as part of that test were applied algebra, shop math, and basic AC-101 and DC-101 circuit problems. Then once those objectives are passed then allow to take the multiple choice test.

To become a PE it is a two step process with regards to testing. First is the FE (aka EIT) exam. It is generic and basic to all engineering disciplines. The FE includes science, mathematics, and engineering sciences.

While it is true any engineering or science graduate is eligible to take any of the PE exams, it is self regulating and there is no need for the requirement one be trained in a specific field because there is no way an engineer trained in electrical is going to pass a Civil, Chemical, Mechanical, Environmental, etc exam. It is just not going to happen.

And for what it is worth there is engineering discipline that covers power distribution and lighting, it is an Architectural Engineering program.
 
kenaslan said:
I believe that all electrical PE's should be required to pass the masters test and have at least 2 years with the tools on

I think that is the way it is in most other countries does anyone know the requirements of other countries?
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I don't know about it being a requirement, but it won't hurt to have that experience. e/m.
 
Yes I know about the AE Degree. IMO it is the only degree that is valid. In the union you do have to take all those tests. In fact the collegeic (sp) board has awarded 55 semester units towards an electrical construction engineering degree after completing the 5 years of school, yes 5 years, and a 40 hour work week to boot. rrequired to take the JW test. Take a look at the IBEW requirements. You have to have math before even being considered to be allowed to join the IBEW. and a masters goes way beyond simple algebra and trig.
 
Don't take the statements wrong, I (we) are not belittleing or discounting the amount of education that goes into a Union Journeyman training. The IBEW has one of the best and most intensive if not the best training programs of all the trades. I was pointing out that most of the training is discipline specific.

I can honestly say I disagree with your statement about requiring PE's to have two years with the tools to qualify for the following two reasons. I paid for my college education by working as an electrician assistant (my dad had an electrical contracting company), the work made me appreciate working in the ivory tower even more, also god only gave me 5 fingers on each hand and I would like to keep them, I am of more value to a company utilizing my brain than the 5 thumbs on each hand.

The other thing is, if it is required for electrical PE's than it would be required for all disciplines, (I can not see Process Engineers doing pipe fitting, Structural engineers being leading edge Iron workers, Mechanical Engineers doing tin knocking for ducts, fill in other examples here).

Again it is about responsibility and accountability on a particular project and in todays litigous society, why would anyone in their right mind want that burden on their families shoulders.
 
I've done both.

I started out as an electrician in the Navy. Much of the program I went through was alongside some of the Ociffers. They trained on some of the same things we did, but spent more time on the overall picture of things. We trained on and learned the details.

After getting out of the Navy, I went through the IBEW. I took that 5 years of training (one night a week). I never saw anything beyond simple algebra and trig. Most guys complained about the little bit of math we did have to take. Many JW's told me I was a fool for wanting to go back to get my EE degree.

After completing the program + another year or two in the field, I finally made it into school full time to get my degree. I tried to transfer some of those IBEW credits toward my degree. Guess what, they didn’t translate to engineering courses. I was a little shocked at first, but in the end they were right. It was much more intense then the JATC training. Yes, the other students didn't know what a simple ice-cube relay looked like. I had to show one professor how to hook up a four way switch. There was nothing on the history of electricity. There was nothing on the NEC, or even the IEEE color books. But the focus was totally different. We spent more time on the overall picture of things.

You may not like the analogy, but there it is. As an electrician with years in the field, and licenses out your rear end, I have no doubt as to your ability. But in the end, great electricians are the Senior and Master Chiefs of my prior Navy experience. Engineers are the Officers. They wear the same color, but their focus and their responsibilities are different.

And neither could function without the other.
 
kenaslan said:
Yes I know about the AE Degree. IMO it is the only degree that is valid.
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My friend, I think your perspective may be somewhat distorted. Just to clarify, an Architectural Engineering Degree, albeit may allow someone to take the exams, does not mean they will be able to pass. In fact, I know a few that have not, and never will be able to pass. That degree is heavily geared toward architecture for the first 4 years, with only minimal 2 semesters related to a specific discipline, e.g. electrical, mechanical, etc. The "design" they learn is limited to building services such as lighting, service entrance (LV side Xfmr), basic circuit wiring/sizing, etc. Design capabilities are very limited to small building design. So, yes they can take the FE/EIT, they may or may not pass depending on the amount of chemistry, mechanical, and electrical circuits they elected to take. IF they pass, they may or may not ever get the experience they need to qualify for the PE, and if they do, well, I would say the cards are stacked against them to ever pass the PE, due to the fact that the material on the exam, they will never have seen.

Now, as far as California. Yes, your C-10 license does permit you to design work that you are going to install/construct, as long as you are qualified to do the work Refer to the California 2007 Professional Engineers Act 6737.3. In CA, you cannot take the PE if you havn't passed the EIT, or gotten a waiver. But getting a waiver still requires a degree in either engineering or engineering technology.

As far as requiring engineers to wear tools for two years, is an interesting proposal although highly impractical. Just as it would be impractical for an electrician to be required to take two years of undergraduate electrical theory, after he becomes a journeyman. In my estimation, the percentage of completion for either would be maybe 1%.

Now, as far as engineering. I won't disagree that a good designer (non-engineer) can be taught the basics of building interior design, lighting, fire alarm, security system etc. Electricians can also certainly do a lot of design tasks as well, and many have great knowledge about various specialties. This forum is a testament to that. But, there are a great number of other jobs/projects that engineers do that are not related to simply doing it per Code, and because of the liability involved, companies require that the work be done by Professional Engineers. The types of projects I do, have very little to do with the Code like load flow, short circuit, arc flash studies, set protective relays. I analyze electrical systems for reliability, and design coal, gas, wind, solar, and other types of generating stations. I assess older plants for longevity and do economic analysis for replacement of equipment. From my perspective, I was an electrician for 11 years prior to deciding to become an engineer, and I can say, an electrician cannot do what I do. (But then most engineers can't properly change a receptacle.:smile: ) As an electrician I had no idea what IEEE, ANSI, NESC, NEMA and other standards were, or that they even existed.

It's not that the PE is some magic wand that says you know everything, but it says that you have gained a certain level of experience, dedicated time and effort into learning, which translates into responsibility.
 
I think you would be supprised by the training now. 3 night a week at 4hours a night. also the credit is only 4 years old now as the training has steped up quit a bit. I use to train the pipe bending part which was a lot of trig to calc the bends. When one bends 4" OCAL at over $100 a pipe + 2 JW's to bend it your looking at around $300 to $400 a stick. You BETTER know your trig tables in order to do complex bends.
 
To some degree, I am in agreement that an EE degreee should have an option for code courses as well law, technical writing & customer relations. In the last 30+ years of work, I have not used my PE that much (6- 8 years). This was when I worked in the consulting profession. To have a PE or not is a personal decision. I have met several PE's that should not be using it as well.

In addition to designing power & lighting (NEC compliant), a lot of PE's are not versed with life safety (NFPA 101, ADA, & IBC) applications as well as fire alarm (NFPA 72).

Personally, I believe that my EE degree was a starting point and my PE was just a milestone achievement. Having NICET certification & Master electrician license means a lot as well. If one can not fulfill all of the requirements for PE (state dependent), then one should look into some other certification process such as NICET.

Good luck with your pursuit.
 
kenaslan said:
I believe that all electrical PE's should be required to pass the masters test and have at least 2 years with the tools on
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I disagree, but only with the "required" part. I think a little while in the trenches (or would it be gutters? ;) ) with a good Electrician would be a great knowledge asset to any Engineer. However, let's imagine this little scene:

Prospective Engineer: Mr. Electrician, I'd like to come work for you. You'll train me (as long as I can keep from slipping and telling you I'm not really a lifer). By the time you've got two years of training in me, I'm going to leave, and then you'll start seeing some of my stamped drawings come your way, where now you'll have to call me and ask me if you can make changes. You don't mind feeling totally used, do you?

Electrician: Oh no, not a bit! Where do I sign up?

I said "imagine," because that conversation is pure fantasy.

kenaslan said:
I think you would be supprised by the training now. 3 night a week at 4hours a night. also the credit is only 4 years old now as the training has steped up quit a bit. I use to train the pipe bending part which was a lot of trig to calc the bends. When one bends 4" OCAL at over $100 a pipe + 2 JW's to bend it your looking at around $300 to $400 a stick. You BETTER know your trig tables in order to do complex bends.
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If you are equating knowledge of trigonometry with Engineering training, that's a mistake. We might have had a 5-minute Trigonometry review in Freshman Engineering Orientation 101, but that's it. We were expected to know that from high school. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking Electricians here. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Electricians. Many of them could have become Engineers and do a better job at it than I do had they simply chosen to. But like them, I simply had to make a choice about what I wanted to do. Monster.com didn't have a salary listed for "Engineer/Electrician," so I had to pick. (Actually, "Cowboy" was my first choice, but they didn't have that either. :grin: )

I think the prestige of Engineering has been diminished lately. Maybe it's bad marketing or public relations by NSPE. Maybe it's just the overall state of denial our society lives with willingly these days. It seems everyone wants to be an Engineer, but nobody wants to earn the title. When I get business cards from people that say "Sales Engineer", or (in my musician past) "Audio Engineer" (from someone who I can tell probably didn't even graduate high school...he simply knows how to run a P.A. system), it really ticks me off. Show me your state license!

My friends gave me a joke graduation gift, an Engineer's cap (you know...a blue and white striped baseball cap kind of thing), and said "you just spent four years of your life learning how to drive a train. When you get your Master's Degree, you'll know how to steer it." I thought it was funny, but passed at explaining that the "guy who just drives a train straight" was once one of the most scientifically knowledgable men on the planet. He had to understand chemistry, physics, materials, geometry, etc....just to keep the beast maintained, fueled, and running, must less get there on time. Oh well, [/rant]

dpw said:
To some degree, I am in agreement that an EE degreee should have an option for code courses as well law, technical writing & customer relations. In the last 30+ years of work, I have not used my PE that much (6- 8 years). This was when I worked in the consulting profession. To have a PE or not is a personal decision. I have met several PE's that should not be using it as well.
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I could not agree with you more! As a fresh graduate who jumped right into consulting, I was completely lost. :confused: I did not even know what a duplex receptacle was. I'm sure the local EC's had quite a few good-natured laughs at my expense. There might have even been a few not so good-natured laughs. :D

To sum up:

Electrician + more knowledge = higher pay, better quality, happier world.
Engineer + more knowledge = higher pay, better quality, happier world.

Coincidence? I think not.
 
It seems that everyone is arguing the same point here, Electricians like what they do and Engineer's like what they do. As was stated earlier the PE is a milestone accomplishment, such as the Master's license is for electricians.

I do know it is partly a work environment choice. I for one would not want to be outside is all kinds of weather, coming home dirty and grimy everyday. I also know many electricians that cannot stand being in an office for more than 5 minutes.

As a "green" engineer new to the NEC realm I rely on electricians for advice and design assistance everyday. But if the design doesn't function properly it is not my friend the electrician that gets the heat.
 
I'm enjoying this discussion.

Energy-Miser said:
I don't know about it being a requirement, but it won't hurt to have that experience. e/m.
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It's amazing what experience may become useful. My job in high school was a maintenance job at a 10-story public library. The building looked nice but it was a maintenance nightmare and it was less than 10-years old. As I'm doing building designs now I keep trying to think about the poor worker who's got to take care of it long after I'm gone. Limit lamp types, access for repair, labeling, duribility.

I also took a business law class as an elective in my last term at school. It may have been a dry class but it really helped me understand how the law works and about contracts.
 
First let me say that they are trying to make it that in 2015 you are not only going to need a bachelor's degree to take the PE but a bachelor's degree plus 30 more credit hours after that to take the test.

Second designing buildings is not the only work of an electrical PE. There may have been 2 or 3 code questions on the 8 hour test. If they let an electrician get a PE license then that person can go and present themselves as a PE in other electrical engineering fields where you might need to know the complex math or scientific theories, and that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. To be an engineer means you can solve problems using complex mathematical formulas. It does not mean you know the NEC.

If an organization would develope a new kind of license that allows a person to do the electrical design of buildings I would fully agree that electricians with the proper experience and able to pass the test should be able to obtain that lisence. I do not think though that a person without the proper education should be allowed to take the PE test because out of my college I know of only myself and 2 other people who work in the construction trade.
 
Mr. Bill said:
I'm enjoying this discussion.



It's amazing what experience may become useful. My job in high school was a maintenance job at a 10-story public library. The building looked nice but it was a maintenance nightmare and it was less than 10-years old. As I'm doing building designs now I keep trying to think about the poor worker who's got to take care of it long after I'm gone. Limit lamp types, access for repair, labeling, duribility.

I also took a business law class as an elective in my last term at school. It may have been a dry class but it really helped me understand how the law works and about contracts.
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Yes, whether your are an engineer, master electrician, or hold any other qualification in this field, there is really a lot to learn in this business, apart from the technical. Just to mention a few: customer relation, employee relation, labor laws, contract laws, banking and finance, advertising, dealing with state and county jurisdictions, the list goes on and on as you know... e/m
 
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WDeanN said:
I've done both.

I started out as an electrician in the Navy. Much of the program I went through was alongside some of the Ociffers. They trained on some of the same things we did, but spent more time on the overall picture of things. We trained on and learned the details.

After getting out of the Navy, I went through the IBEW. I took that 5 years of training (one night a week). I never saw anything beyond simple algebra and trig. Most guys complained about the little bit of math we did have to take. Many JW's told me I was a fool for wanting to go back to get my EE degree.

After completing the program + another year or two in the field, I finally made it into school full time to get my degree. I tried to transfer some of those IBEW credits toward my degree. Guess what, they didn?t translate to engineering courses. I was a little shocked at first, but in the end they were right. It was much more intense then the JATC training. Yes, the other students didn't know what a simple ice-cube relay looked like. I had to show one professor how to hook up a four way switch. There was nothing on the history of electricity. There was nothing on the NEC, or even the IEEE color books. But the focus was totally different. We spent more time on the overall picture of things.

You may not like the analogy, but there it is. As an electrician with years in the field, and licenses out your rear end, I have no doubt as to your ability. But in the end, great electricians are the Senior and Master Chiefs of my prior Navy experience. Engineers are the Officers. They wear the same color, but their focus and their responsibilities are different.

And neither could function without the other.
Click to expand...
Yes, the two fields seem to be totally disconnected. While I was in college, studying electrical engineering, I remember asking around about how three-way switches worked, no one knew. Finally a classmate drew me a diagram and it made perfect sense. I never had even heard of four-way switches until I got into the trade! On our PE exam, there was a total of one question that involved NEC (it was about requirement for GFCI's in a residential application). It seems like the extent of the overlap between the two desciplines is the Ohm's law and a few formulas on calculating electrical power given votages and currents, etc. It is possible to live entirely in one or the other of these two worlds all of your life (and most do), but I sure am very glad that I had a chance to dabbled in both. Both desciplines are very interesting to study, and both engineers and electricians collectively contribute immensely to our society. e/m.
 
Mr. Bill said:
I'm enjoying this discussion.



It's amazing what experience may become useful. My job in high school was a maintenance job at a 10-story public library. The building looked nice but it was a maintenance nightmare and it was less than 10-years old. As I'm doing building designs now I keep trying to think about the poor worker who's got to take care of it long after I'm gone. Limit lamp types, access for repair, labeling, duribility.

I also took a business law class as an elective in my last term at school. It may have been a dry class but it really helped me understand how the law works and about contracts.
Click to expand...
I was a teacher once, and in one of those workshops that we used to hold as a mixer between successful alumni and the senior class, I asked one of the alumni (an engineer), what was the most useful course he took while in college. I was hoping he would say calculus, so that the students in the group could see how important mastery of math was to their careers. You know what he said? English!!
 
No credit is given for someone attaining a masters or contractors license. Someone in the field for 20 to 30 years as a master electrician knows more about electrical than any engineer getting ready to take the PE.
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I do not know about this, I know quite a few MASTERS that do not know their tushie from a light bulb. I have always thought that a masters is no proof of electrical knowledge just about anyone with time in the trade can with a little study can obtain one.

I met a guy once that "COOKED" his time took one course in the NEC and obtained 3-master licenses.

Before I get inundated with hate mail I am not saying all masters fit this category, just that I do not hold having a masters to be proof of mastery of electricity.
 
So what makes some of you think an EE grad needs to know a thing about the NEC?:confused:

When I graduated I started to work for a POCO as a Sub-Station Engineer. At that time I could have cared less what the NEC said about anything as it does not apply.
 
kenaslan said:
I believe that all electrical PE's should be required to pass the masters test and have at least 2 years with the tools on

I think that is the way it is in most other countries does anyone know the requirements of other countries?
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I think it would be an overkill to require PE's to pass the masters test, as it would be hard to imagine requiring master electricians to pass the PE test. That said, I believe that in some countries there is a mandatory pre-engineering apprenticeship. For example I was told that in Germany, you spend one year after your 12th grade working with a master craftsman in your chosen field, before entering college. Don't know, it could benefit some, but most of all it probably provides cheap labor to the industry!
 
I have worked with some engineers that worked their summers as a electrician helper, these guys were sharp as tacks.

Know a few that started electrical contracting firms.
 
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