P&S device failure rate

[quogueelectric]

School

School

I just installed about 350+ p+s devices in a school I am doing. So far I havent seen 1 problem yet but Havent powered up most devices yet I will post %when I am done.

 

[kbsparky]

I swore off using Leviton devices many years ago after a bunch of failures of their 3-way switches. We were using #12 for lighting circuits, and the switches would crack open like an egg when you tightened down the terminal screws. And we were not over-tightening them, either. Just tight enough so the wire would not move when you stuffed it in the box.

Since then, we have been using P&S devices, with excellent results. While we might have an occasional bad switch or receptacle out of the hundreds we have installed, the failure rate was much less than we tolerated with the Leviton. And their duplex outlets don't break around the grounding hole like the Leviton commonly did.

SO for someone to tell me the failure rate for P&S was 20% or even 10%, I would have to say you might be using the junk stuff they made 15 years ago, when many of us in the trade called P&S "piece of stuff" (for want of a better term)

 

[ty]

you see, a lot of you have these problems w/ leviton where as i've had none. and you have no problems w/ p&s and i have many.

Add me to the no problems with P&S list.
From this consensus, it appears that more have had less problems with P&S than Leviton.

Now, let me ask, is this you personnally installing these failed devices, or a crew of your guys?
I know you stated that maybe you weren't stabbing the wire in far enough, but I wasn't sure if 'you' were actually doing the installing.

 

[ty]

What is up with all this brand loyalty?

I guess when you find something that works for you, you like to stick with it.

There is little difference between Hubbell, Leviton and P&S, the big question is who has the right price.

Not really.
It's not 'which brand is cheaper', rather it's 'how can I get the product I want at the best price'.

Seriously, don?t y?all take quotes on this stuff?

Sometimes, but rarely.
Mostly when ordering large quantities, where sending it off to a rep may yield a better price.
We don't play the game of shopping suppliers against each other. We try to get the best price we can from a reputable supplier, who we've have a long relationship with.

 

[peter d]

Most of the problems mentioned with residential grade devices (plastic around the ground hole breaking, back body snapping) went away when the manufacturers switched from bakelite to nylon. I like P&S stuff but it's carried at suppliers that I don't use. So Leviton it is. And it seems to work just fine.

 

[ITO]

I guess when you find something that works for you, you like to stick with it.

They all work just fine, if an electrician can?t make one device work over other then maybe he might be better suited as a plumber. If you let your crews cherry pick their material, its over.

Not really.
It's not 'which brand is cheaper', rather it's 'how can I get the product I want at the best price'.

While availability is absolutely an issue, so is price. I am not talking about buying a couple; I am talking about ordering 500 minimum for stock, and yes the factory reps to get involved in this kind of deal.

Sometimes, but rarely.
Mostly when ordering large quantities, where sending it off to a rep may yield a better price.
We don't play the game of shopping suppliers against each other. We try to get the best price we can from a reputable supplier, who we've have a long relationship with.

1) May yield a better price? More like 30-50% off if you buy large enough.

2) I have NEVER shopped a number from a supply house, nor did anything I said imply that I was suggesting such a thing.

3) Taking quotes is not shopping supply houses.

There is a big difference between ?shopping a number? and ?taking quotes?. Shopping a number is taking the one guy?s quote and shopping around to see who can beat it by telling everyone else what number they have to beat. Taking a quote is issuing a bill of material for quotation and giving it to the lowest bidder without the game playing.

4) There is no such thing as a ?reputable supply house?, they are nothing but lepers, and they key is finding which one has the most fingers.

Yes, a long-term relationships are a good thing in this business but they don?t mean squat if they think you are not paying attention. If you form a relationship and only use one ?reputable supply house?, then you are not getting the best prices.

The only way in this business to get the best price is to a) quote out your material b) quote it out in a sizable enough chunks to get their attention, c) pay your bills lightning fast and have a reputation for it, d) play fair to a fault, nobody gets a last look.

The old man who trained me would add e) spread it around every now and then too so you keep their interest and make sure you keep your contacts.

A good buying strategy is just as important as a good bid and good planning, and for some contractors, (like me) it?s a matter of survival. Unless you are working T&M you cant compete paying counter prices.

I have caught every one of these ?reputable supply houses?, with their hand in the cookie jar, but what makes one better than the other is how they handle their mistakes.

Summers/Rexel
GESCO (Gexpro)
Elliot
Dealers
Summit
CED
Graybar
Nunn (Border States)
Wesco

 

[brantmacga]

1) i work in the field; paperwork and such usually waits until the end of the day. 2) i am brand loyal. i don't buy the lowest cost if i don't personally like the material. and i'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. i know it works. however, the philosophy i was taught is that you can be the cheapest and have all the work you want, or you can be the highest and find people that are willing to pay for what they perceive to be better work, and make the same money doing less. that's what i try to do. its worked for the guy who taught me for 50 years now, and its working for me so far.

 

[ty]

They all work just fine, if an electrician can?t make one device work over other then maybe he might be better suited as a plumber. If you let your crews cherry pick their material, its over.

I don't think they all work just fine. I think some are junk, and would not use them just because they cost less, or are more readily available.
And, I for one don't let my crew pick their material. I agree with you.
It's my company name on an installation.

While availability is absolutely an issue, so is price. I am not talking about buying a couple; I am talking about ordering 500 minimum for stock, and yes the factory reps to get involved in this kind of deal.

I wasn't talking about buying a couple either.

1) May yield a better price? More like 30-50% off if you buy large enough.

Yes, mayyield. You said it yourself, if you buy large enough .

2) I have NEVER shopped a number from a supply house, nor did anything I said imply that I was suggesting such a thing.

My intention wasn't to imply that you did. Only to make it known up front that we don't.

3) Taking quotes is not shopping supply houses.

I for one agree.

There is a big difference between ?shopping a number? and ?taking quotes?. Shopping a number is taking the one guy?s quote and shopping around to see who can beat it by telling everyone else what number they have to beat. Taking a quote is issuing a bill of material for quotation and giving it to the lowest bidder without the game playing.

I for one know what it is. And, again, I agree.

4) There is no such thing as a ?reputable supply house?, they are nothing but lepers, and they key is finding which one has the most fingers.

I don't fully agree with you on this.
Let me ask, are you a Reputable contractor?

Yes, a long-term relationships are a good thing in this business but they don?t mean squat if they think you are not paying attention. If you form a relationship and only use one ?reputable supply house?, then you are not getting the best prices.

I don't fully agree with you on this, either.
You know it goes both ways. Your customers could have that same attitude.

All,
is it really only about getting the best price?
Would you mind paying a point or two higher to have the confidence that your material will be there when promised, will be the correct material that you ordered, and so on?
Even if they make good on errors, how much is aggrevation worth?

The only way in this business to get the best price is to a) quote out your material b) quote it out in a sizable enough chunks to get their attention, c) pay your bills lightning fast and have a reputation for it, d) play fair to a fault, nobody gets a last look.

I agree with you in theory on this.

The old man who trained me would add e) spread it around every now and then too so you keep their interest and make sure you keep your contacts.

I wouldn't bother.

A good buying strategy is just as important as a good bid and good planning, and for some contractors, (like me) it?s a matter of survival. Unless you are working T&M you cant compete paying counter prices.

I don't pay counter prices. I know where my pricing is. Some of my pricing is negotiated with manufacturers.
I personally don't solely rely on pricing. (not that you do either).
I run a very successful business. (and you might too).
I'm not the cheapest guy in town, and we are very busy.

I have caught every one of these ?reputable supply houses?, with their hand in the cookie jar, but what makes one better than the other is how they handle their mistakes.

Summers/Rexel
GESCO (Gexpro)
Elliot
Dealers
Summit
CED
Graybar
Nunn (Border States)
Wesco

I really don't deal with any of them. Maybe a couple 1% of the time, and some I've never heard of. I would add that what also makes one better than the other is how limited they are in making mistakes.

ITO,
I did not intend to insult you in any way. I just don't agree with you 100%. I think the way I run my company is best(for me, anyway). I'm in business to make money, and I do.
I understand how business works, and how to make a profit.
I also sometimes like to argue points just to think about them more indepthly.
-Todd

 

[peter d]

I don't pay counter prices. I know where my pricing is. Some of my pricing is negotiated with manufacturers.

Could you elaborate on this? How does one go about negotiating prices with manufacturers?

I would also disagree with ITO on one point - there are plenty of EC's who pay "counter price" who run successful businesses. They tend to be on the small side and don't have the ability (re:volume) to get lot buys and lower prices. But they make money anyway.

 

[growler]

Have any of you tried Cooper wiring devices? I have been having good luck with them for some time now. At one time I used Leviton and then I got a run of bad switches and latter a run of bad GFCI receptacles.

I think that when you get a bad run of a product it tends to give you a bad impression of the product but any manufacturer can have a bad run and quality contol not catch it.

I remember when a well known appliance manufacturer had an employee that was actually commiting sabotage to make them look bad. They caught it but not before many bad units were in the field.

 

[ITO]

I really should be working… this will have to be my only post today.

I also sometimes like to argue points just to think about them more indepthly.
-Todd

Fair enough, then we wont take any of this personally.

Issue #1 Device Quality.

I don't think they all work just fine. I think some are junk, and would not use them just because they cost less…

Are you saying that there is a huge quality difference between Hubbell, Leviton, and P&S? These are the brands I brought up as quoting, and I have never run across a customer who can tell the difference, or had any quality issues with any them. The reason I specifically mentioned these three is this is what I can always get approved in submittal, except on a rare occasion some engineers want Hubbell.

Issue #2 Supply houses

I don't fully agree with you on this.
Let me ask, are you a Reputable contractor?

That all depends on who you ask. Some of my clients think I hung the moon and keep it bright at night, while others are…not so happy.

I don't fully agree with you on this, either.
You know it goes both ways. Your customers could have that same attitude.

Don’t they all? How many times has a customer given you a blank check an said, “get it done”? This is a hard bid business, we bid 90% of our work and still have to negotiate the other 10% I have not bid a job in this year where I was the only bidder. This is a free market and these, and forums like these are full of contractors talking about customers who are always looking for the best deal.

is it really only about getting the best price?
Would you mind paying a point or two higher to have the confidence that your material will be there when promised, will be the correct material that you ordered, and so on?
Even if they make good on errors, how much is aggrevation worth?

I think you are missing a finer point here. This is about obtaining quotes for the best price on know high quality material, this is not about buying junk. The buying junk spin is the first thing that comes out of the supply house salesman’s mouth when this topic comes up and it is spin spin spin.

To stay on topic there is little to no difference in quality between Leviton, Hubbell, and P&S. Which would you rather use a Raco, Steel City, or T&B 1900 box? Does it really matter or do you want the best price? This is apples to apples here.

The old man who trained me would add e) spread it around every now and then too so you keep their interest and make sure you keep your contacts.

I wouldn't bother.

Right now I am not doing this but I am also trying to learn some humility and the old man had has been right on so many other things he did, and at them time I thought he was nuts.

I don't pay counter prices. I know where my pricing is. Some of my pricing is negotiated with manufacturers.

A word of caution, unless you check them, you don’t really know. The supply business is a commodities market, and they have to play this market to make money.

I'm not the cheapest guy in town, and we are very busy.

When there is little to no work, I am the cheapest guy in town, when the work is good I am by far not the cheapest guy in town, I play the market too.

I really don't deal with any of them. Maybe a couple 1% of the time, and some I've never heard of. I would add that what also makes one better than the other is how limited they are in making mistakes.

I would argue they all make mistakes, its how they handle those mistakes that defines them.

Could you elaborate on this? How does one go about negotiating prices with manufacturers?

Make contact with a factory rep, and ask them what kind of volume you would need to but to negotiate a better deal. Usually one of the inside salesmen at one of your supply houses will help you do this.

 

[ty]

I really should be working? this will have to be my only post today.

I thank you for taking the time to post your response.

Fair enough, then we wont take any of this personally.

No, not at all.

Issue #1 Device Quality.
Are you saying that there is a huge quality difference between Hubbell, Leviton, and P&S? These are the brands I brought up as quoting, and I have never run across a customer who can tell the difference, or had any quality issues with any them. The reason I specifically mentioned these three is this is what I can always get approved in submittal, except on a rare occasion some engineers want Hubbell.

I must say, I read over the part before that you stated you do NO residential. My company does Residential/Commercial/Industrial.
For some reason, it seems that alot of forum discussions tend to be residential based, and I tend to use that train of thought.

In Commercial SPEC grade devices, I don't think that there is much of a difference between the examples that you gave.

Issue #2 Supply houses
That all depends on who you ask. Some of my clients think I hung the moon and keep it bright at night, while others are?not so happy.

Fair enough. But I think that goes for Suppliers too. Some contractors think highly of a certain supplier, and others think they suck spit.

Don?t they all? How many times has a customer given you a blank check an said, ?get it done??

Actually, in Residential, we get that 95% of the time. We do alot of high-end homes. They want what they want. 'Get it done'.
Some might ask for an up-front cost, but that doesn't stop the task from being completed.

This is a hard bid business, we bid 90% of our work and still have to negotiate the other 10% I have not bid a job in this year where I was the only bidder. This is a free market and these, and forums like these are full of contractors talking about customers who are always looking for the best deal.

We bid jobs too. We don't get every job.

To stay on topic there is little to no difference in quality between Leviton, Hubbell, and P&S. Which would you rather use a Raco, Steel City, or T&B 1900 box? Does it really matter or do you want the best price? This is apples to apples here.

I can tell you, if I consistantly got batches of metal wall cases with ,say, non-tapped device screw holes, I would be very reluctant to purchase them even if they were cheaper.
Thanx again for the conversation.
-Todd

 

[brantmacga]

I can tell you, if I consistantly got batches of metal wall cases with ,say, non-tapped device screw holes, I would be very reluctant to purchase them even if they were cheaper.

i had this problem w/ t&b boxes. they would also arrive with all of the clamps laying in the bottom of the carton. i've been using EGS boxes for about 8 mo. now.

 

[JohnJ0906]

I think that when you get a bad run of a product it tends to give you a bad impression of the product but any manufacturer can have a bad run and quality contol not catch it.

About 8 or so years ago,I remember having a problem with SquareD QO doublr pole 30 amp breakers - about 1/3 bad right out of the box, and dozens of them. Went on for a month or so, and never happened again. It must have been a bad run at the factory. I think QO is good stuff, and rarely have a problem, but it does show that anyone can have a bad run of product.