PA Dept of Labor Apprenticeship Programs?

TwoBlocked

TwoBlocked

Senior Member
Location
Bradford County, PA
Occupation
Industrial Electrician
Been trying to find training resources for our electrical apprentice. ATS (Advanced Technical Schooling) seems a good choice. They are approved in a number of states (but not Pa, not yet ...) and base their curriculum on Mike Holt materials.

ATS is interested in using us to help them become approved in PA. I don't know a whole lot about the PA DOL apprenticeship program, if that is what it should be called, and am hoping some of you fine folks have had experience with it. I have my doubts that it is a good fit for a small shop like ours - Gas field indication and control contractor with me being the only electrician.

As I understand it, the PA DOL "program" requires a minimum of 6 Journeymen before having a second apprentice. I can see the reasoning, so that a company doesn't have a slew of apprentices, getting paid very little (below minimum wage?) with little true on the job training. But in our situation, if our existing apprentice were to be in the PA "program" and we took on another apprentice, he would not be able to be in it. This would create a two-tier system - not good.

Any experience or thoughts on the matter? The State of PA does not require Electrical Journeymen to be licensed, but some Counties do.
 
TwoBlocked said:
Been trying to find training resources for our electrical apprentice. ATS (Advanced Technical Schooling) seems a good choice. They are approved in a number of states (but not Pa, not yet ...) and base their curriculum on Mike Holt materials.

ATS is interested in using us to help them become approved in PA. I don't know a whole lot about the PA DOL apprenticeship program, if that is what it should be called, and am hoping some of you fine folks have had experience with it. I have my doubts that it is a good fit for a small shop like ours - Gas field indication and control contractor with me being the only electrician.

As I understand it, the PA DOL "program" requires a minimum of 6 Journeymen before having a second apprentice. I can see the reasoning, so that a company doesn't have a slew of apprentices, getting paid very little (below minimum wage?) with little true on the job training. But in our situation, if our existing apprentice were to be in the PA "program" and we took on another apprentice, he would not be able to be in it. This would create a two-tier system - not good.

Any experience or thoughts on the matter? The State of PA does not require Electrical Journeymen to be licensed, but some Counties do.
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Please be careful dealing with foot dragging Pa Politicians. When my father took the City of Philadelphia test for his electrical license in 1964 he was told politicians in Harrisburg are working on a state license. About ten years ago wonderful Philly IAEI chapter sent some Inspectors & electricians to talk to politicians about getting a state license. A few of them said they would look into it. Great to see non union companies taking on apprentices. Win win for everyone.During my 50 years as an electrician have seen small companies that hire a young person for minimum wage then tell them after four or five years they will be an electrician making full rate but they never provide classroom training or books. Expect training is on the job asking the electrician to train them.
 
garbo said:
Please be careful dealing with foot dragging Pa Politicians. When my father took the City of Philadelphia test for his electrical license in 1964 he was told politicians in Harrisburg are working on a state license. About ten years ago wonderful Philly IAEI chapter sent some Inspectors & electricians to talk to politicians about getting a state license. A few of them said they would look into it. Great to see non union companies taking on apprentices. Win win for everyone.During my 50 years as an electrician have seen small companies that hire a young person for minimum wage then tell them after four or five years they will be an electrician making full rate but they never provide classroom training or books. Expect training is on the job asking the electrician to train them.
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Taking on an apprentice seems the ONLY way to get additional, COMPETENT electricians around here. I'll skip the anecdotes, everybody has some. Thing is, since I'm the only electrician, I want him to get training elsewhere, also. I want him to be broadly trained.
 
ATS has suggested waiting until they are approved before our apprentice starts the curriculum, so that he might be able to get some kind of certification from the state of PA without having to retake any portions of the training.

I question whether the contractor I work for wants to mess with the State approval at all.
 
In that state to your east, you know the one that looks like it would be your coast if Penn had secured his charter in 1664 alongside the Duke of York, (or if Charles II hadn't been so generous with his brother) I think they mandate DOL apprenticeship programs to get a license. So may be a benefit if you need compatibility with other states. Otherwise get them the best education you can for the lowest cost and least red tape.
 
It is more likely that a Journeyman License would be gotten in West Virginia. The following is the requirements from Mike Holt:

www.mikeholt.com

West Virginia Electrical licensing, exam, and renewal information.

Mike Holt worked his way up through the electrical trade from apprentice electrician through electrical contractor, to become one of the most recognized experts in the world as it relates to electrical power installations. He was a Journeyman Electrician, Master Electrician, and Electrical...
www.mikeholt.com

  • Must meet at least 1 of the 3 requirements below:
    • Must have at least 1 Year (12 months) or 2,000 hours of actual, hands-on electrical work experience. All work shall consist of above ground structural wiring in accordance with the National Electric Code.
    • OR
    • ?Must have completed an approved US Department of Labor formal Apprenticeship program.
    • OR
    • Must have completed an approved West Virginia Department of Education 1080 hour vocational course
 
Thanks everyone. Looking at this deeper, if the route taken is that regulated by the PA DOL, our apprentice would be awarded with a:

"Journeyworker Certificate from the PA Dept. of Labor & Industry’s Apprenticeship and Training Council" Good, God! Couldn't they come up with a better title?

I can't find anyone that would require this certification, including to sit for an NEC exam. Seems the program is really to draw in applicants for apprenticeships. The State's regulations (if followed ... ) would help protect apprentices from being taken advantage of.

The advantages don't fit our needs, and we don't have the time to jump through the hoops. IEC (Independent Electrical Contractors) seems to have an interesting program, if we were looking for apprentices to come from the outside. But we are looking for training for one (and hopefully others) that has already been hired. He was working as a roustabout, and then I snagged him. This is the typical route for advancement here. We have about a dozen guys that work in the field.

Looks like we will go with the Mike Holt based training from ATS (Advanced Training Schools.) For our Instrumentation Techs, we use SAIT (Southern Alberta Institute of Technology), which does not offer a non-residential electrical program. The deal is that each year the apprentice signs a contract. If they fail complete that year's program, they owe the company the tuition. If they pass, they get a raise and decide if they want to continue. I expect, to be fair, the same will be done with Electrical Apprentices. I doubt that would fly with the PA DOL, anyway.
 
"For our Instrumentation Techs, we use SAIT (Southern Alberta Institute of Technology), which does not offer a non-residential electrical program."

I should have said "non-resident electrical program," meaning you have to be in Canada to enroll in the program.
 
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