paid extras gone mad

[cselectric]

Just curious if anyone else out there is seeing the same trend in the industry that I am.

Over the past few years, I have bid many jobs that were based on incomplete prints. Normally the print looks relatively complete, certainly complete enough to make it through the permit process. Once the job starts, the change orders start flying. At the moment, I am managing a fast food store remodel that had a base bid of 20 grand. I already have 11 grand in signed change orders (thankfully this is one of our cooperative customers) and just got notice that they want to redo all of the parking lot lighting and drive thru signage. All said and done, the extras on this job will more than double the bid price.
For a while, this was a big problem for the company I work for, as our foreman were often failing to submit written change orders for customer approval. No change order, no paid extra. We were giving a lot of things a way and loosing money doing it. Thankfully we've tightened that system up and managed to get our field personnel on board.
Is this becoming the standard practice of the industry? That is to say, get the low bid on incomplete prints and hope to screw the subcontractor on the extras? Or is this something unique to the market I work in or contractors I work with?

 

[chrsb]

Re: paid extras gone mad

It happens alot where I work. Just last week the owner of the company and I were walking through a job we were bidding on and he got mad at me because I kept pointing put all of the problems with the prints. He wanted to get into the job and then hit them with the extras.

It seems that prints have gotten worse in just the last couple years, very incomplete. I don't see how some of these get through plan review. We have had a few jobs where the extras were more than the original bid. The only bad thing is some end up in court. What we have done latley is put a price on each extra and have them signed, not do it T&M. It seems to hold up better in court.

We also have had 3 companies go under on us in the last few years too, get 50-90% complete and then they shut the doors, the banks wouldn't give up the money, extras did them in.

[ August 01, 2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: chrsb ]

 

[goldstar]

Re: paid extras gone mad

put a price on each extra and have them signed

In my most humble opinion, this is the MOST important thing you can do. If you're the lead person on the job it becomes a real pain to have to stop what you're doing and go figure out what additional work has to be done, how much time it will take, what the cost will be and then go back to your office and make sure you log in the additional work and billing.

Another thing you should be aware of is "deadlines". If you're company signs AIA type contracts, there are clauses in them that hold you to a specific completion time. Somehow, when customers and/or designers want these extras included in their jobs the deadlines never seem to get pushed back. Make sure you negotiate for that also.

The following situation happened to me a few years ago: I bid on a new residence and was awarded the job. I had no signed contract because the builder is a friend of mine, I've been doing work for him for many years and we usually do things on a handshake. When the house was completely framed I got to the job and began nailing on boxes. The plan that I had and was working from was from October of 1999. As I started to move from room to room I realized that certain room locations were changed. When I inquired about it the builder handed me a plan dated April 2000 and I realized that there were many more devices on his plan than on the plan I was working from. Long story short, the job went from $17K to $32K. To make matters even worse, the homeowner was an engineer who managed to get a reproducable set of drawings from the architect and "plunk in" his own version of what devices he wanted and where.

My advice - Get signed contracts and extras - even if you're working for friends or family !!!

 

[cselectric]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Originally posted by chrsb:


It seems that prints have gotten worse in just the last couple years, very incomplete. I don't see how some of these get through plan review. We have had a few jobs where the extras and more than the original bid. The only bad thing is some end up in court. What we have done latley is put a price on each extra and have them signed, not do it T&M. It seems to hold up better in court.

So far, I've not had to go to court (at least not as a project manager, I did have to take the stand last year as a foreman, in a case involving 38K in unpaid extras.

We have recently switched to up front pricing, with a signature before any work on a given extra begins. We've also taken to determining who is and is not an authorized signatory on any given job. I've seen a trend towords companies not allowing their site super or expeditor sign anything (but, the super will generally sign anything, then after the fact you find he isn't authorized to do so.)

The current project I mentioned, we've been upfront pricing all extras. The foreman writes up a white sheet and hands it off to me, I run the numbers through our estimating software and get a nice neat printout to present. Those printouts get faxed directly to the owner of the GC company for signature. So far, it seems to be working fairly well. I just wish there was a way to avoid this cat and mouse game, but if you bid the prints by what you think should be there instead of what is actually drawn, you lose bids.

 

[shocker3218]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Was talking to a plumber the other day that did a remodel on a very large discount chain store (trying to avoid the low price name). Had about $40,000 in extras that the general on the job agreed to, and of course it was a rush job so "we'll sign it later" At the end of the job the plumber was told that he would not get paid for any extra's and go ahead and sue us if you want because the court costs would be more than what the extra's were anyway. "Always low prices" I wonder why?

 

[chrsb]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Originally posted by shocker3218:
"Always low prices" I wonder why?

Talk to some of there workers and they might tell you why. We did alot of work for another low price place, but they went under(got screwed out of alot of money) near the end, before they went under, they had hired alot of ex"always low prices" people who were trying to cut corners, didn't work out for them either. I am glad that where I live, working families don't shop at the "always low prices" place or anything that is affilated with them.

Back to the topic, we have the estimater come out and I show him what the additions are and he works out the price, I then take it to the GC, if he signs it, we do the work.
Hopfully this thread will help some people not get screwed out of money. Always have a signed document with a number on it, not just a change order with T&M.

 

[cselectric]

Re: paid extras gone mad

While I've never tangled with the "always low price" people, I've seen similar phenomena on other jobs. Always a rush, always a "will sign it later." That's how my current customer, who I'll call the oven mitt, likes to do things. IN the past, that has hurt us, so policy has changed. We're holding out for signatures, if that means a work stoppage then so be it. Of course, we can only get away with this because they failed to directly address work stoppages of this nature in the contract. It's working out OK for us at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if they correct that little oversight on the next set of contract documents.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: paid extras gone mad

about fifteen years ago--the g.c.'s in my area would only issue the electrical drawings for bid purposes! if you wanted anything else you would be required to go to the g.c.'s office to see that plan. who a$$ is hanging out here. if they are so cheap to provide proper documents for bidding they shouldn't be in the business!!! installation costs are dependent on ceiling heigths and many other things concerning other trade's drawings. who is responsible for these problems---i stopped doing business with g.c.'s ten years ago---best thing i ever did in twenty two years in my business!!!

 

[stanley]

Re: paid extras gone mad

In our area this sillyness has gone one step farther. A lot of drawings are marked;

"If the contractor finds any ommisions or errors he shall notify the Architect 72 hours before the bids are due to be submitted."

"The Architect will issue an addendum to all contractors calling their attention to the revision."

"If the contractor fails to notify the Architect in writing as outlined above, it will be assumed that his bid included everything required to provide connections as they actually exist or as they will be provided without increase in contract price."

If you miss something and do not bring it up and are the low bidder you are expected to do whatever may have been missed without a change order.

This business is really starting to suck.

 

[cselectric]

Re: paid extras gone mad

I guess the biggest question I have is: Why does this occur?

Is this an attempt to increase profits by short changing the sub contractor?

Is it lazyness on the part of the engineer / architect?

Is it an owner / GC that is too cheap to pay for adequate engineering?

 

[goldstar]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Could be some or all of the above reasons. Hard to proove though. Your best defense is to read, read, read the bid documents if you want to do this kind of work. It could turn out to work to your advantage if you accurately keep track of the extras. In many cases the engineers are so pressured by the owners to get a job started that their drawings are often incomplete or lacking finite details.

My church is currently undergoing an expansion. It's been almost 10 years in the planning. Contractors were expected to bid on drawings that were 40% complete. How are you supposed to bid on a project like that ? Are you supposed to give an electrical installation estimate that's 40% of what it should be ? If you know what 40% represents you have to know what 100% represents don't you ? Bid processes have gone way off course as far as I'm concerned.

 

[cselectric]

Re: paid extras gone mad

It has gone way off track. I'm just new to the estimating game (recent promotion) and I'm trying to sort out the best approach to this. So far, just about every job I've seen is incomplete prints and extras after the fact (with no small amount of trying to dodge payment of the extras.)
I actually had a print land on my desk on Friday that had no electrical drawings or equipment specs. This is a high dollar steak house in a downtown location. The note I got was "just give us what we need." This is no easy task, especially since they want to see bid numbers in 30 days.

 

[goldstar]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Be careful with this. I'm not sure if it's a nationwide thing or not but here in NJ electricians are not allowed to size commercial services. Giving them what they need is far different than a minimum of what is required and also different than what they want.

This is a steakhouse with a commercial kitchen area, bar, seating area, emergency exits, fire alarm and smoke detection systems, fire extinguishing systems, etc. Looks to me like they want to skip the paid engineering process and let you do the design.

 

[cselectric]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Thats how it appears to me. The GC is, in my book, a fly by nighter. He strikes me as a residential kitchen remodeler that got hooked up with some clients that want bigger work done. He has no clue what he's getting into on this project, and is hoping his subs will make him look good. Trouble is, he's not interested in paying engineering or design build costs. All things considered, I'd rather decline the print and walk away, but he's a personal friend of my boss, so I've been told we have to bid it. I'm thinking the best I can do here is push the print onto someone else in the office, based on the fact that I don't have a PE stamp and therefore cannot legally do design work.

 

[chrsb]

Re: paid extras gone mad

I will try to make this long story short-

Last year I did a job like that, the prints were worthless, it was the GC first commercial job. The building was a 6 million dollar health spa. The GC relied on the subs to run the job for him. We did our best to help him out but there is always a difference of opinion on how things should go between the trades(who does what first etc...) Any ways, the extras piled up, the opening date got pushed numerous times and people were not signing up to join the club. We got the job 99% done, got a temp electrical final and the place opened for a week. The bank came in and locked the doors, and it is still in court 8 months later.

GC's have to be competent and know there jobs. We as subs can't do it for them, we do talk to each other and try to coordinate with each other, but what is easier for a carpenter is not always easier for the electrician so the GC has to step in.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: paid extras gone mad

about fifteen years ago i bid a full floor tenant space for "goldman sacks" a stock and brokerage company. they had a high dollar engineer group due the electrical design. big computer room, raised floors throughout the space. it was mainly full of work stations and fancy kitchens and confrence rooms. at the pre bid meeting, i asked (confidentially) the electrical engineer who did the design if he had mistakenly requested none dedicated circuits throughout the space? he told me "i'll put it on the print and you install it as shown" then "we'll get along ok"! for two years they had problems with too many equipment failures! they called this engineer in and asked him about the problem, he blamed the problems on the fact that i had not installed dedicated circuits throughout the space! of course they called me to set up a meeting with their engineer. he rolls out a set of plans and starts telling me about the common neutrals pulled throughout the space? and his plans showed all dedicated circuits? i had an office in this building and dug out the "as built drawings"--guess what ---he had changed the plans to protect himself--his plan and my plan both had the same date!!! then he told me he wanted to take my plans with him!!!!! all confidentiality ended right there and i told him off in front of the tenant. we had to repull all the branch circuits and add some larger raceways. that firm is out of business today--thank goodness!

 

[active1]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Every print I get is about 20-25% short on the electrical drawn on it. No lights in attic, crawel, not much for 3 ways, never an outlet on a wall less than 8'. The outlet spacing is about 13-14'. No closet lights. One GFI per counter top no matter how big. No appliances shown but they allways have everything. Not enough smoke detectors. No outlets or lights equipment. Electric meters shown going on top of a window in a corner next to a sump pump.

If I add these in the proposial then I am told some other guy is way cheaper. If you compare I am cheaper but the other guy is providing less.

I am told to bid on the print only then ADD the required items. I get the job. We work on the rough. Don't put that switch in yet. We need it but it has to be approved. Now I need to go count the adds and fax it to the GC. I get phone calls about how much of the adds are required and what is asked for by the customer. The customer calls and asks why we need this and argue about whether smoke detectors are required or why it cost more to cut a GFI in a cabnet. We are done with rough but still waiting on the approval so we can go back and do the required. We need to keep track of the extra amounts and makes the payout more confusing on what is due.

I never charged more for extras but I am sick of waisting time playing games. I don't want to sell small things halogen bulbs or a few dimmers because it's not worth the time to document. I would like to start hitting hard with extra charges because of the delay of work, extra trips to the job, and extra papper work. I have herd thats how some make their big money.

Tom

 

[physis]

Re: paid extras gone mad

Charlie: I had a general contracter do something similar to me recently. One of his guys say's to me on the work site "Why aren't these switches dimmers, Robert want's dimmers" (There's about 40 dimmerable switches in this building) I said the agreement say's switches, we had a discussion specifically about switches ver. dimmers and he chose cheapest. His guy says "it's always dimmers". I know, that's why we had the disscusion. I go to his office to sort it out and he shows me our agreement, his say's dimmers, mine says switches. I guess they get away with it sometimes. This is almost $1000 (I'm sure yours was more).This ought to be criminal not civil.

Changes are typical though for both general contractors and property owners. I think every other day they get together and change everything. I just say what's new instead of hello!

 

[ron]

Re: paid extras gone mad

The extras will get larger and more frequent as the time between "project design start" and "customer move in" becomes smaller and smaller. Design-build will be the grand bonanza for the change order business. Especially as design build moves into environments where the client really wants it a certain way, and there is no contract requirement for that way.

 

[michaelstanley]

Re: paid extras gone mad

I had 3 jobs recently that I have given bids on 1 of which I actually did the work on, that had no engineering (electrical with specs or load calcs.) and I was expected to give a price on. Another that had electrical calcs. and a lot of detail, but had recess lights shown to be installed in areas that only had a metal roofing for the ceiling. How could one miss that?? I believe it is a combination of not wanting to pay engineering costs and GCs hoping to have someone miss something and get low bid. I would like to see the local gov. require detailed electrical engineering on commercial and even large residential. My two cents worth. Has anyone been hit much with the "I need this bid by the day after tomorrow" line???