Pairing or marking neutrals

[iwire]

3 hots, 3 neutrals in a conduit. Taping pairs is not very time consuming. I had a business in the past and the few commercial jobs I had, I considered it worth doing, even when I was paying for it.

You asked for opinions right?

My opinion was and still is it is a waste of time.

Now I have learned that the 2014 NEC has gone and put more training wheels on this trade and now requires this grouping to help the unskilled get by.

 

[iwire]

In MWBC cases if you do not associate the neutral with the right hots then you risk letting the magic smoke out of equipment connected to neutral.

And that smoke strongly suggests unskilled workers.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

And that smoke strongly suggests unskilled workers.

But employers always want to pay less and we keep hearing about the huge shortage of skilled tradesmen, so the code has to be dumbed-down again and again.

 

[iwire]

But employers always want to pay less and we keep hearing about the huge shortage of skilled tradesmen, so the code has to be dumbed-down again and again.

Well I think you know my feeling on that ...... you get what you pay for.

Offer the right rate and skilled tradesmen will appear.

 

[FionaZuppa]

isnt it possible to just lift a neutral in question on the fixture side and tone that back into the panel??

 

[iwire]

isnt it possible to just lift a neutral in question on the fixture side and tone that back into the panel??

Becuse all the neutrals land on the same neutral bar the tone will be on all the neutrals.

You would have to lift all the possible neutrals from the neutral bar to do that.

 

[jmellc]

You put a current on the circuit you want to add to, often this is complicated. You might have to flip a switch on or even plug something in.

Once you get by that major stumbling block you measure the current on the hot you want, then find it on the neutral you want. To ensure you have the right neutral you turn the circuit off and the current will drop if you have the correct neutral.

Its tough to be superman.

So much easier to just tape or label the neutral from the start.

 

[fmtjfw]

You put a current on the circuit you want to add to, often this is complicated. You might have to flip a switch on or even plug something in.

Once you get by that major stumbling block you measure the current on the hot you want, then find it on the neutral you want. To ensure you have the right neutral you turn the circuit off and the current will drop if you have the correct neutral.

Its tough to be superman.

OK, I see you don't have a trick way, just hunt down an outlet for the wires in question and hang a load on them.
And here I thought you had a method that would avoid the treasure hunt.

Assuming the neutral hot pair is marked in the panel of origin of the branch/feeder circuit another way would be to turn off the power to the hot(s) and pull the neutral from the neutral bar, then connect a toner "fox" to the neutral and its hot, then search in the junction box with a "hound". This may be faster than trying to trace out the circuit to find a place to add a load.

 

[kwired]

So much easier to just tape or label the neutral from the start.

Then you possibly cross the boundaries of marking it as being an ungrounded conductor, plus you really confuse the untrained when you have a "marked" conductor on the neutral bar:happyyes:

OK, I see you don't have a trick way, just hunt down an outlet for the wires in question and hang a load on them.
And here I thought you had a method that would avoid the treasure hunt.

Assuming the neutral hot pair is marked in the panel of origin of the branch/feeder circuit another way would be to turn off the power to the hot(s) and pull the neutral from the neutral bar, then connect a toner "fox" to the neutral and its hot, then search in the junction box with a "hound". This may be faster than trying to trace out the circuit to find a place to add a load.

Simple circuit tracers send a signal thru the grounded conductor as well as thru the ungrounded conductor.

 

[iwire]

OK, I see you don't have a trick way, just hunt down an outlet for the wires in question and hang a load on them.
And here I thought you had a method that would avoid the treasure hunt.

Normally I know what a circuit feeds before I decide to add load to it.



You must be one of those 'just tie it into anything' kind of guys.

 

[iwire]

So much easier to just tape or label the neutral from the start.

Which we disagree and that is fine.

It is less time to mark one circuit pair than it is to find it with a tester.

It is not less time to mark every circuit pair on a job than it is to have to find a small percentage of, if any, pairs later on.

So if I knew I had to find every pair at some point later I would agree with marking every pair but the fact is I almost never have to find pairs later so it is lost time.



The bottom line to me is this, your boss, the person making ends meet and keeping you working said he does not want you to do it.

To me that leaves but two choices, do it the way the boss wants or go back to being your own boss.

 

[fmtjfw]

Then you possibly cross the boundaries of marking it as being an ungrounded conductor, plus you really confuse the untrained when you have a "marked" conductor on the neutral bar:happyyes:



Simple circuit tracers send a signal thru the grounded conductor as well as thru the ungrounded conductor.

There is a border between marked grounded wires for association purposes and re-identified white wires for power feeds in switch loops. If you follow the rules crossing the border is forbidden.

You are only allowed to re-identify white wires for switch loops when they are contained in cables. Presumably there are few if any power rated cables that contain more than one white wire. When one or more neutrals are contained in a cable you probably do not have to be superman to associate the neutrals and hots.

The only time that you need to mark neutrals for association is when they are not in cables.


I don't see any overlap:?

I am familiar with Fox and Hound telephony tracers, CAT5+ tracers and cable identifiers, and Ideal de/energized circuit tracers

Sure tracers send the signal through both the neutral and the hot, if they are connected between the neutral and the hot, but I am unfamiliar with any that can distinguish one neutral conductor connected to a neutral bar from any other.

Even fairly expensive circuit tracers have difficulty unambiguously determining the correct breaker, giving similar readings for breakers connected to wires sharing the same raceways.

Can you give me a model number that distinguishes neutrals while still connected to the neutral bar?

 

[kwired]

There is a border between marked grounded wires for association purposes and re-identified white wires for power feeds in switch loops. If you follow the rules crossing the border is forbidden.

You are only allowed to re-identify white wires for switch loops when they are contained in cables. Presumably there are few if any power rated cables that contain more than one white wire. When one or more neutrals are contained in a cable you probably do not have to be superman to associate the neutrals and hots.

The only time that you need to mark neutrals for association is when they are not in cables.


I don't see any overlap:?

I am familiar with Fox and Hound telephony tracers, CAT5+ tracers and cable identifiers, and Ideal de/energized circuit tracers

Sure tracers send the signal through both the neutral and the hot, if they are connected between the neutral and the hot, but I am unfamiliar with any that can distinguish one neutral conductor connected to a neutral bar from any other.

Even fairly expensive circuit tracers have difficulty unambiguously determining the correct breaker, giving similar readings for breakers connected to wires sharing the same raceways.

Can you give me a model number that distinguishes neutrals while still connected to the neutral bar?

Sorry haven't retained that data, but can say any tracer worth owning I have ever used can do this. I haven't used hardly any of the so called cheap tracers you find at big box stores so I can't speak much on their behalf. Only the branch connected to the transmitter and the supply conductor will have a signal. If there is parallel paths involved, you are going to have a harder time and you also likely have some code violations. You may need to get the receiver away from the bar a little bit or you will have a hard time distinguishing which conductor is the one you are looking for. This is a tracer that only puts signal on the current path not a toner that puts signal on all paths connected to it. A model with a signal gain control is easier to use then one that doesn't have such control, I will agree to that - even for breaker finding operations.