panel change out

[shelco]

I am changing out a 100 amp fused panel (residential)with 100 amp breaker panel.
service will remain untouched branch remain untouched.
Generally speaking do we have to upgrade anything existing or does every thing remain as is as long as we replace existing.
I realize that the municipality may have something to say about this but this is a general type question.
Thanks

 

[be4jc]

Re: panel change out

I would & have accepted that.
I dont know how you could do it any other way
and I sure wouldn't want to tell the EC or home owner that they have change all the wiring!!!
B.E
Building Inspector II

 

[celtic]

Re: panel change out

I just a similar job last month...inspector asked about the (H20)meter being jumpered out .
Other than that, no changes/additions were required...installation passed.

 

[bthielen]

Re: panel change out

The first question that comes to my mind is why replace the panel in the first place? Are fuses any less reliable? Actually, I tend to lean toward the opposite to hold true. Unless there is a problem with nuisance trips, the panel will live its life untouched and unnoticed. If there is a problem with nuisance trips, then upgrading the panel only may not be the best course of action. It may save the cost of replacing fuses but the cause for the nuisance tripping continues to go unresolved, and that is the real danger.

Bob

 

[physis]

Re: panel change out

By Bob:

The first question that comes to my mind is why replace the panel in the first place? Are fuses any less reliable? Actually, I tend to lean toward the opposite to hold true. Unless there is a problem with nuisance trips, the panel will live its life untouched and unnoticed. If there is a problem with nuisance trips, then upgrading the panel only may not be the best course of action. It may save the cost of replacing fuses but the cause for the nuisance tripping continues to go unresolved, and that is the real danger.

I kind of agree with that. Certainly about correcting overloaded circuits. A lot of times circuits get overloaded because the panel's full. That's always a good excuse for an uprade. I think someone wanting to change a panel just because it's old rusty and ugly is reasonable too.

 

[celtic]

Re: panel change out

Originally posted by bthielen:
The first question that comes to my mind is why replace the panel in the first place? Are fuses any less reliable?

Ask the insurance industry...many times on transfer of property they will require a change from fuses to CBs in order to obtain a HO policy.

 

[shelco]

Re: panel change out

The home owner feels better about having this changed out.
I did explain that the fuse panel is in good condition and there is no present danger or safety risk as long as the fuses remain the same size when replacing.
They do have the occasional fuse blow and they do not like trying to track down fuses and changing them. They also feel that it will be worth it when the go to sell.

 

[bthielen]

Re: panel change out

One advantage in changing to CBs is that it is less likely that Joe-homeowner will replace a CB with a higher rated one to solve nuisance trips. It's too easy to replace a 15A fuse with a 20A or even 30A as was evident when I purchased my old farm house. To this regard, changing to CBs has a small chance of reducing a potential safety concern - to a point.

Why do insurance companies prefer CBs? I'm not sure I understand.

Bob

[ June 17, 2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: bthielen ]

 

[celtic]

Re: panel change out

Originally posted by bthielen:

Why do insurance companies prefer CBs? I'm not sure I understand.

Because people put pennies or tin foil in the base and defeat the fuse - among other reasons.
This is NOT to say a 30A CB couldn't be put in place of a 15A CB.

It may also be a matter of convenience...it's a lot easier to reset a CB then it is to remove and replace a fuse (not neccessarily my opinion).

Both of these examples could expose a person to a voltage.

 

[goldstar]

Re: panel change out

Although it may not be required in some areas, in my honest opinion if you don't perform a complete upgrade (change the SE cable, service head, meter pan, drive ground rods, bond the water meter, increase service amperage) you haven't done your customer a credible service. Changing out the fuse panel and merely installing a 100 amp breaker panel in its place doesn't improve the value of or increase the resale value of the house. Most home inspectors in my area would pick that off in a heart beat. Unless it's an emergency replacement, I don't believe an inspector would allow it in my area.

 

[pierre]

Re: panel change out

To stir the pot...

In NYS when any permit is pulled - did you pull a permit for this job? - the smoke detector/system has to be brought up to the current state code, no ifs, or ands or but(t)s... What a lot of people are experiencing is an added (unexpected) cost to the work.


BTW - the "any permit" means any permit - plumbing, building, electrical.
Even if a plumber pulls a permit to do plumbing work.

 

[aelectricalman]

Re: panel change out

I went to a job one time where the house partially burnt. In the panel, the fuses had pennies in the slot instead of fuses. This is not why the house burnt, but it was well on its way. You can't do that with circuit breakers.

 

[aelectricalman]

Re: panel change out

Originally posted by goldstar:
Although it may not be required in some areas, in my honest opinion if you don't perform a complete upgrade (change the SE cable, service head, meter pan, drive ground rods, bond the water meter, increase service amperage) you haven't done your customer a credible service. Changing out the fuse panel and merely installing a 100 amp breaker panel in its place doesn't improve the value of or increase the resale value of the house. Most home inspectors in my area would pick that off in a heart beat. Unless it's an emergency replacement, I don't believe an inspector would allow it in my area.

What are you smoking? If I went to purchase a home with a fuse box I would demand that it be brought up to breakers before I bought it. Im sure Im not the only one in here who agrees that it is indeed and upgrade. Maybe not the best possible, but Id feel better about buying the home.

 

[physis]

Re: panel change out

Goldstar, we also have to make the new panel meet code from branch circuit entrance back. New panel not 250 compliant, that might be fun just to see how the inspector reacts.

By Piere:

the smoke detector/system has to be brought up to the current state code, no ifs, or ands or but(t)s...

Extortion is only good when you're doing the extorting. Is this supposed to shift a financial burden or ensure that a new installation is done safely.

Because it would be easier to send the police over with automatic weapons to force the smoke detector installation at gun point. Of course that would be expensive. And what would the moral implications be if the over armed police didn't have this same compliance at their house's?

Retro active law enforcement is always an indication of abuse of power! It also lets you know where you fit in in the system that you're so much a part of. I'm surprised they don't commendier the local PBS stations so they can get a better fear response out of the population. After all, who would oppose a better world?

 

[infinity]

Re: panel change out

In NYS when any permit is pulled - did you pull a permit for this job? - the smoke detector/system has to be brought up to the current state code, no ifs, or ands or but(t)s... What a lot of people are experiencing is an added (unexpected) cost to the work.


BTW - the "any permit" means any permit - plumbing, building, electrical.
Even if a plumber pulls a permit to do plumbing work

Pierre,
Is this a statewide code or is it for individual counties?

It seems almost comical that a gas fired leaking hot water heater would require me to install smoke detectors. I'd guess that a lot of small jobs get done without a permit.

 

[physis]

Re: panel change out

Goldstar, Scott's post appeared while I was typing my post. I'm not adding to what he said unless by coincidence.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: panel change out

Where I live, messing with the panel sometimes triggers an ordinance that requires other stuff in the house to be done. This varies widely from city to city. In some cities, as long as you don't increase the amperage, you can just do a panel upgrade and leave it at that. In others, if you do anything with the panel other than a minor repair, the city considers it a service upgrade and requires all kinds of other electrical stuff to be done in addition to the work in question (minimum number of receptacles in each room, at least two circuits in the kitchen, GFCIs installed, etc.).

I've got two panel replacement jobs in the hopper right now in one such city, and neither one of them involves upping the service amperage. One guy told me his insurance premium will drop considerably if I swap out his fuse box for CBs. Fine with me -- it keeps the revenue coming in.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: panel change out

I`m not saying that inspectors in N/Y/C are lets say,a bit under the tabe guysI left in 83 and the last job I was on was a 13 story conversiom from paper mill to mini storage.The insp.showed up looked at the service took an envelope and left
There are countless srories of this behavior but now is not the time to elaborate

 

[pierre]

Re: panel change out

Since 1983 NYS has had a law requiring all, ALL dwelling units to have smoke detectors.
Since 1983, many people in NYS have died of smoke inhallation due to fires in their dwelling units.
Because people were not following this requirement, and there were so many deaths due to noncompliance, the state mandated a tougher law that went into effect January 1, 2003.

Part of the new law is the requirement to install smoke detectors whenever a permit of any kind is pulled. This was put into effect, as when a permit is pulled, some kind of inspection is made and the smoke detector system is part of that inspection.

Remember that most fire departments in NYS are voluntary. So when they respond to a fire and someone is in the building, they are risking their life, not just the life of the homeowner who refuses to install some smoke detectors.

Extortion... maybe.... a life saver - for more than just the homeowner. A product of the world we live in now. You can be bitter about it, just comply and be bitter

 

[stud696981]

Re: panel change out

Speaking of insurance companies, I got a call this week from a relative. He stated he needed me to give him a good deal on a service change over because his insurance company was charging him an additional $200 per year on his homeowners insurance for having fuses. He said that he called three other companies and they all said it was extra too. So I went over then and found that he had #2 AL SE cable coming into a 100amp fuse panel with type "S" fuses. I opened the panel and everything looked perfect....the house was built in 1971. I told him that he had a good service and to advise the insurance companies that this was a 100amp service with type "S" fuses. So he went ahead and called around, everyone said fuses were more money, NO EXCEPTIONS. So now he has to pay to change over to ciruit breakers just to save on his insurance, even though he has a perfect service panel already.