panel change out

[stud696981]

Re: panel change out

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Part of the new law is the requirement to install smoke detectors whenever a permit of any kind is pulled. This was put into effect, as when a permit is pulled, some kind of inspection is made and the smoke detector system is part of that inspection.

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This reminds me of a contractor I know who has business cards that state, "No permit, No problem." This forces people to go around the inspection process.

 

[william runkle]

Re: panel change out

The post is changing 100 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit breaker panel. Question is the grounding going to be the same as it was installed when the fuse box was installed? Most fuse boxes around here ground to the nearest cold water pipe and maybe a jumper around the water meter if it is a well usually no jumper to the well casing, so the answer to the post is yes you have to update the E.G.C. system to your areas latest code. I notice no one suggested S fuses with proper size adapters, they are tamper proof once found a dime in on the circuit couldn't be energize. And remember the three fuse types out there the Edison base the S fuse and the Lincoln.

 

[shelco]

Re: panel change out

Yes I did pull a permit.
The service to the house and panel is only about 10 tears old. very small home about 1000Sq feet so there is no need to have the home owner spend money on this. Why the panel wasn't changed at the same time i do not know.
In this area a panel change is a panel change and nothing elsle applies. Per the AHJ.
Thanks
Shelco

 

[goldstar]

Re: panel change out

Question is the grounding going to be the same as it was installed when the fuse box was installed?

This was the whole point to my post. At what point do you draw the line as to what you're replacing ? Just the fuse box ? Maybe the EGC system too? How about the freyed SE cable and the rusted meter pan ? Why not spend $10.00 and add a ground rod ? All I meant to imply is that the homeowner wouldn't get the most bang for his buck if you merely change out the fuse panel.

And by the way aelectricalman, I stopped smoking 1n 1980. I get high on life and dancing with my bride now.

Would you buy a house where the only electrical item that was replaced was the fuse box and not the freyed SE cable, etc ? If you needed quadruple heart bypass and the surgeons only replaced one artery to get you by for a few years would that be acceptable ? Are you the type of guy that does an oil change on your car and doesn't replace the filter ? My point is that if you're replacing the heart of a system, why not replace as many supporting items as you can to make the job better ?

 

[bthielen]

Re: panel change out

One thought that comes to mind. Can the service entrance panel be replaced without properly sizing for the residence calculated load? If this is only a 100A panel and unless the home doesn't use any electrical appliances, it is my guess that it no longer is adequate based on the calculated load.

Bob

[ June 20, 2005, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: bthielen ]

 

[stud696981]

Re: panel change out

According to the posts, this is a 1000 sq ft home. Unless everything in the house runs on electricity, a 100 amp service should be fine. People get caught up on the size of service, but I haven't seen too many houses with a 100 amp service that was triping the main breaker.

 

[stud696981]

Re: panel change out

One thing to add, most places I work in require the grounding and bonding to be brought up to code on a service change over.

 

[physis]

Re: panel change out

By Pierre:

Extortion... maybe.... a life saver - for more than just the homeowner. A product of the world we live in now. You can be bitter about it, just comply and be bitter

Giving a mugger your wallet might save lives too. But I don't see how that makes mugging people a reasonable solution to anything.

I'm pretty sure that's the exact logic.

Edit: And I am bitter at times Pierre. Sometimes regretfully and other times because I can't think of a more appropriate reaction.

Edit: Everything can't just be justified by saying "lives are being saved". How many lives will be saved if our cars and trucks are taken from us? How many if.... blah blah blah blah......?

How much safer will we be without freedom all together?

Sorry. I don't agree with tactics in this case. It's an attempt to legitamize retroactive code enforcement. It's that simple.

Edit: If it's that important then why isn't the rest of the population required to make the same improvements? That's hardly equal enforcement.

Edit: Did you know that my van doesn't have an air bag or ABS brakes. And it needs some work. Same thing or no?

[ June 21, 2005, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[goldstar]

Re: panel change out

We've all made a lot of assumptions here (including myself) as to the condition of the existing service. When I read that a "fuse panel" is being changed out and replaced with a breaker panel, I form a picture in my mind as to what the condition of the rest of the electrical system would probably be like. If you have no other information except that a house has a fuse panel isn't it safe to assume that the SE cable, grounding, etc. are also ancient ?

Now we come to find out that :

The service to the house and panel is only about 10 tears old. very small home about 1000Sq feet so there is no need to have the home owner spend money on this. Why the panel wasn't changed at the same time i do not know.

Isn't this like having a 8 cylinder automobile and changing out 4 plugs today, 4 plugs next month, wiring, rotor and points the next month, etc ? You have to ask yourself who did the service change originally. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making $$$, but I would draw the line when it comes to an electrical service. If a prospective customer asked me to just change out an SE cable or just a fuse panel and not the rest of the system, I wouldn't take the job. Not because of principle, but because of liability and responsibility. If you're willing to go in on the tails of someone else's partial work just to make a few $$$ - God Bless You. My license is too dear to me to take those chances.

 

[shelco]

Re: panel change out

I agree. Had I been asked to change out the Se cable only I proably would not have done it either, however that is the way it was done.
On occasion in this area we have had some severe storm damage and many times the service gets ripped down. This may have been the case, I don't know.
Since the service cable is in good conditiion there would be no point in replacing good with the same. They also did upgrade the Ground to code. All that was left was the panel.
It may have been an insurance thing and they would not pay for a panel change. Again speculation.

 

[shelco]

Re: panel change out

Goldstar
I am not sure of your about your statement that it is a liability to go in behind some ones partial job " for a few $$"

I don't know about you but that is why I am in business.
Isn't that what we do? Fix things, I don't see how your lic. is in jeprody to fix a deficiency.
Any time you go in to do work, someone else has been there before us.
Again we don't know the circumstances surrounding
the previous installation.

 

[kevinsarnold]

Re: panel change out

As far as the penny being placed behind the fuse, there is an adaptor that can be put into place that will not permit that to happen. It is called a "Fustat Fuse adaptor". And, why do you call putting a circuit breaker panel in as "an upgrade"? The whole purpose of a breaker or fuse is overcurrent protection, not convenience. Also, if everything is sized correctly per NEC, then the only time these devices will trip, is when an overcurrent occurs. I know of some breakers that have nuissance trips and some that won't trip an overcurrent. By the way, when you "upgrade" to the breaker panel, I'm sure you tell the Homeowner to exercise their breakers at least once a year per manufacturers and standards recommendation? If not, then there is an excellent chance it won't work properly if at all.

 

[william runkle]

Re: panel change out

Kevin you make a good point for the adapters found a homeowner try to tamper one with a dime if it would have worked would have the fourth fuse call Roosevelt, but it didn't. For calling the fuse box to circuit panel an upgrade is because in most cases the service of fuse box is a 60 amp main range 4 circuit fuse box so you usually upgrade everything outside and inside including grounding and bonding and the service entrance wiring and a new meter can a riser or lateral.

 

[goldstar]

Re: panel change out

Shelco,

I guess I'm at fault here by not asking for more info to your original post. As I had mentioned in my last reply, based on your original post there were assumptions made by many here in the forum as to the condition of this service. If you were the last electrical contractor to do work at this residence and inspected the SE cable, meter pan, grounding system, etc. and when you left the job you brought everything with respect to the service up to code, then if at that time you want to sign off on it and claim the job as your work, then so be it. Enjoy the $$ that you made.

If this were a case where the triplex cable ripped away from the side of the house and you only had to re-attach to the SE cable then I would feel comfortable re-attaching that cable. However, as for me, I would not feel comfortable with doing half a job by replacing the SE cable (whether it was storm damaged or not) and leaving a customer with an old meter pan (if in fact that were the case) and a fuse panel.

 

[shelco]

Re: panel change out

Gold star
I agree that who ever did the change out of service cable should have completed the upgrade to breaker panel. However as I said we don't know why, it could have been at the request of the home owner. The SE cable from power co. to meter and meter to fuse panel was changed, the ground was brought to modern code so I have to assume that there was a specific reason why the panel was not changed. All of that really doesn't matter at this point it is what it is. The home owner now wants it finished. Why would I or anyone else not do it. Entire service is now code compliant, customer is happy.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: panel change out

Originally posted by stud696981:
According to the posts, this is a 1000 sq ft home. Unless everything in the house runs on electricity, a 100 amp service should be fine. People get caught up on the size of service, but I haven't seen too many houses with a 100 amp service that was triping the main breaker.

We have one builder BTW nation wide that will sell an upgrade to 225 amps and this particular builder gets a 150 amp as a standard install.But we do not stock 150 amp panels and they know that we wil be installing a 200 but they convince the buyer that for the extra $450.00 they will never have to worry .
When in reality all they are getting is a 42 ct panel I have heard people tell me that thier homeowners insurance company would not insure a home they were going to buy if it had fuses instead of breakers .Lets look at some of the things concerning breakers over the past 30 years or so.
To the new guys in the field,have any of you ever seen an F.P.E. or a Zinsco breaker with these particular breakers you could just about arc weld without them tripping.Go to the big O and buy a replacement 2 pole 50 Zinsco.They sell a whole panel package with mains and asstd. breakers for what that sucker costs.I think it was somewhere around 1975 that F.P.E. was taken off the market and Challenger took their place.Same breaker different package :roll:
When I lived and worked in N.Y.C. the slip of the envelope was just what was done ,no envelope no passing inspections.I worked for one guy that I watched write a check and hand it to the inspector,even though the install was perfect that`s how bad it was.That`s the way it was .I only hope that this practice is still not happening.

 

[eprice]

Re: panel change out

Originally posted by physis:
Edit: If it's that important then why isn't the rest of the population required to make the same improvements? That's hardly equal enforcement.

This a section of code from the IRC which covers residential buildings in much of the country. I understand, though I may be wrong, that is is in the process of being adopted in California.

R313.1.1 Alterations, repairs and additions. When interior alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit
occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or
created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit
shall be provided with smoke alarms located as required for
new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected
and hard wired.
Exceptions:
1. Smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be re-
quired to be interconnected and hard wired where
the alterations or repairs do not result in the remov-
al of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the
structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space, or
basement availablewhich could provide access for
hard wiring and interconnection without the re-
moval of interior finishes.
2. Repairs to the exterior surfaces of dwellings are ex-
empt from the requirements of this section.

 

[physis]

Re: panel change out

Pierre's right. I have been a little bitter lately. I was gonna try to stop doing that, at least for a while. But now I'll have to expand on why I'm bothered by this.

In my opinion the fact that California likes it is almost proof that it's draconian.

What I meant by the rest of the population is everyone who isn't having their building remodeled or repaired. Is the percentage of people doing permitted work on their homes even significant in comparison to how many aren't? This isn't going to save the world.

Your neighbors don't have to do this. Unless they try to repair their building too.

Say you want to fix something in your home. You go through the respectable process, permits and hiring legally licensed and insured professionals. Suddenly you're decended upon by a bunch of people who want all these other things to be done that are completely unrelated and at your expense. Suppose also, that because of this additional burden, that you opt to not go through with the repair. Now additionally assume that the repair was going to be electrical, and it was going to be done because it would have removed a potential fire hazard. (I know that this couldn't ever really happen because this idea is a good thing)

And don't even try to compromise and be reasonable. Let's make the alarms be interconnected. Just so it's sure to cost thousands. (That's the price here)

What? you can't hear 90 or 95 decibles across the hall in the average home?

You can't expect people to be happy to have something shoved down their throats just because a few dictators decide for them that it's a great idea.

Or maybe you can? I don't.

Edit: And if I open a wall, I have to bring the electrical up to current code. I don't have a problem with that. If I had to go through the building and bring a bunch of other walls up to current code I would.

[ June 22, 2005, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: physis ]