panel replacement AFCI's
- Thread starter bth0mas20
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mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
The NEC does not address this in particular, but you may have local rules. I have not heard about any local rules requiring AFCI's to be fitted in the panel during changeouts. Matter of fact, with the proliferation of multiwire branch circuits, that could make a panel change downright expensive. I think the fair answer is probably 'NO', but it's always good advice to check with the local AHJ.
Having said all that, I'd suggest you try for the upsell anyhow, if for no other reason then to enhance your profit on the job.
Having said all that, I'd suggest you try for the upsell anyhow, if for no other reason then to enhance your profit on the job.
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It would be ridiculous for a number of reasons but, local codes have the final say.
Roger
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
If you are under the 08 as NC is then you can expect a panel full of AFCI's on a new house. I am not looking forward to that. Fortunately I just finished a house with 2 - 40 circuit panels that had about 38 circuits, 120v) in each. This is not including the other panels in the house which had all of the 240v circuits. Think of the cost, etc on that.
- Location
- Massachusetts
We sell electical equipment, more equipment means more profit. At least as long as the enforcement of the code is strong and uniform.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
AFCIs will actually help an EC in more than one way. He can, as Bob mentioned charge more. He can also rest assured that the quality of the installation will be at a minimum as the AFCI CBer placement does not tolerate poor wiring installations.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Looking at my last post I think it may be misleading, I was talking about new work.
I doubt I would attempt to up sell AFCIs on a old building unless the customer was willing to go T&M.
I also doubt an EC would get much work if they always included AFCIs with a service change bid.
I doubt I would attempt to up sell AFCIs on a old building unless the customer was willing to go T&M.
I also doubt an EC would get much work if they always included AFCIs with a service change bid.
chris500
Member
- Location
- FL, MO, IL, KS, TX
The city of St. Louis, if they are able to ever adopt the 2008 NEC, is intending to make the installation of AFCI's retroactive on existing panel change outs.
This will be a huge issue if it is ever passed. Housing stock is typical of an old city.
However, I don't personally think they will ever get it passed. There is too much political bickering in St. Louis, that gridlock is the theme. Maybe that's not a bad thing.
This will be a huge issue if it is ever passed. Housing stock is typical of an old city.
However, I don't personally think they will ever get it passed. There is too much political bickering in St. Louis, that gridlock is the theme. Maybe that's not a bad thing.
Karl H
Senior Member
- Location
- San Diego,CA
I'm curious when the 2008 NEC is adopted here in 2011.
How many "Defective" AFCI's will be replaced with standard
single pole breakers after inspection. When I say "Defective"
that's what the installer's story will be when he realizes
that an AFCI will hold the installer accountable for his/her
wiring methods. I know from talking to one of my suppliers
that theres been a lot of "Defective" AFCI's already.Now it's
just the bedrooms ,wait till it's the entire house.
How many "Defective" AFCI's will be replaced with standard
single pole breakers after inspection. When I say "Defective"
that's what the installer's story will be when he realizes
that an AFCI will hold the installer accountable for his/her
wiring methods. I know from talking to one of my suppliers
that theres been a lot of "Defective" AFCI's already.Now it's
just the bedrooms ,wait till it's the entire house.
Here you could loose your license for installing parts that are not per applicable codes.
With that said, I'm sure many DIYers will be installing standard breakers for their weekend projects and also replacing AFCI's with standard breakers if they have nuisance tripping.
Roger
Karl H
Senior Member
- Location
- San Diego,CA
Here you could loose your license for installing parts that are not per applicable codes.
That should hold true for all states IMO.
That should hold true for all states IMO.
In Washington State you dont have to install AFCI's in panel changes.
We're adopting the 2008 NEC except for the AFCI rules. We still only have to protect the bedrooms.
Greg Swartz
Senior Member
- Location
- Colorado Springs, Colorado
In Colorado...
In Colorado...
In Colorado, when you change out a panel, you do not need to install AFCIs (unless of course they were already there...)
To be honest, I believe this is foolish... who could require such a thing?
It's insane!
Why, you ask?
Well, if you have an older house, you have to contend with MWBCs.
What happens when the new AFCIs trip? The old breakers worked fine... there's no selling point when the house has been working for 30 years...
You may have the issue of re-wiring an entire house...
Look, I understand profit, and increasing a job price, but I am not ever going to suggest installing AFCIs.
In Colorado...
In Colorado, when you change out a panel, you do not need to install AFCIs (unless of course they were already there...)
To be honest, I believe this is foolish... who could require such a thing?
It's insane!
Why, you ask?
Well, if you have an older house, you have to contend with MWBCs.
What happens when the new AFCIs trip? The old breakers worked fine... there's no selling point when the house has been working for 30 years...
You may have the issue of re-wiring an entire house...
Look, I understand profit, and increasing a job price, but I am not ever going to suggest installing AFCIs.
Karl H
Senior Member
- Location
- San Diego,CA
IMHO you should'nt have to re-wire an entire house to
upgrade a panel.If I remove recept and replace it in an area that
should be GFCI then that's another story.
upgrade a panel.If I remove recept and replace it in an area that
should be GFCI then that's another story.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Why? Because the person might say no? Because you don't like hard work? You're happy being poor? You don't believe in suggesting safety enhancements? You're not confident in your skills such that you'd be able to troubleshoot one, should it trip?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Not yet. So far, I'm just asking questions to hopefully point out the near sightedness of not upselling, regardless of the product or service.Are telling us that these AFCI breakers are Falwless?
Greg Swartz
Senior Member
- Location
- Colorado Springs, Colorado
Not worried so much. But it is not required.
Not worried about that either... I work enough as it is. 80+ hours a week
Nope. Not happy about that. And I am poor.
I do not believe AFCIs are safety enhacements. I remember on this forum back in 2001 (yes, I was a member then... something went haywire, and I can't seem to fix my member date) when they were going to be mandatory... back when the 99 code had stated that Jan 1 2002, AFCIs were going to be required...
Anyway, Mike Holt was ADMANT against AFCIs. About how we were forcing a technology to be created, and how testing was different under each manufacturer.
I know AFCIs have changed since then, but I still do not believe they are safety enhancements.
Had enough experience troubleshooting them. Not worried there either.
I explained earlier that there are issues with MWBCs, and there are issues with older houses that do not work with AFCIs.
When you have an older house that has a 60A service or even a 100A FPE, and they are required to change the service out (due to insurance requirements) you are not required to change things out to AFCIs. Heck, even if you take a newer house, and upgrade the panel, you are not required to install more AFCIs...
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mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Would you permit me to relate this... you don't have to believe in their value to propose their use and sell them. I don't happen to like white devices, but a lot of people want that color if I give it as an option.
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