panel replacement AFCI's

[peter d]

Would you permit me to relate this... you don't have to believe in their value to propose their use and sell them. I don't happen to like white devices, but a lot of people want that color if I give it as an option.

Here's how I see it. I know you will point out the flaws in this. What good is an upsell if potential callbacks could quickly wipe out the money you made on the upsell? I'm not talking about AFCI's "finding" legit wiring problems that need to be corrected...I'm talking about the nightmares that Escott has endured with nuisance tripping from a product that is still very mysterious in its operation.

 

[mdshunk]

Here's how I see it. I know you will point out the flaws in this. What good is an upsell if potential callbacks could quickly wipe out the money you made on the upsell? I'm not talking about AFCI's "finding" legit wiring problems that need to be corrected...I'm talking about the nightmares that Escott has endured with nuisance tripping from a product that is still very mysterious in its operation.

Properly installed, there is no AFCI callback that will not be billable.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Would you permit me to relate this... you don't have to believe in their value to propose their use and sell them. I don't happen to like white devices, but a lot of people want that color if I give it as an option.

I can accept this statement.

Here's how I see it. I know you will point out the flaws in this. What good is an upsell if potential callbacks could quickly wipe out the money you made on the upsell? I'm not talking about AFCI's "finding" legit wiring problems that need to be corrected...I'm talking about the nightmares that Escott has endured with nuisance tripping from a product that is still very mysterious in its operation.

This is a concern I have.

Properly installed, there is no AFCI callback that will not be billable.

Unfortunately, proving this can become very difficult.
We are considered experts in our field. Installing something and then having "problems" with them, and blaming that problem on something else / someone else just doesn't fly. So, it automically becomes our fault.
And just because it is legitimately billable, does not mean that I won't eat the cost, because I want to keep an "A" customer.
Just because I am right does not make it right in other people's minds. (I hope that came across right... no pun intended)

 

[Karl H]

Anyway, Mike Holt was ADMANT against AFCIs. About how we were forcing a technology to be created, and how testing was different under each manufacturer.
I know AFCIs have changed since then, but I still do not believe they are safety enhancements.

I have a DVD where Mike Holt say's that he "Initialy" was adamantly
against AFCI's.But, after going to Cutler Hammer and seeing the
the difference in a Arcing waveform and other fault wave forms.
He changed his stance on the subject.It's all on the "Basic Electrical
Theory" DVD set. When I remodel my house I will be installing them.
But, then again I live here so I won't be losing money on call backs.
BTW I'm a Master Trouble-shooter.When something does'nt work
I instantly know there's trouble!

 

[electricmanscott]

Properly installed, there is no AFCI callback that will not be billable.

Bull, absolute bull

Edit....I gues anything is billable, whether or not you get paid is different story

 

[iwire]

Bull, absolute bull

Scott the fact you could not find the problem does not convince me that they trip for 'no' reason.

 

[bauler]

Hmmm. I'll have to check with our local AHJ about AFCI for panel change outs. Assumed they were required. I have one coming up this week in an 50 year old house. I planned on a AFCI for the bedroom circuits. I doing it for a fixed price. I added a little bit of fudge factor in my price. Hope there is enough in there to cover the possibility of shared neutrals etc. or I be working cheap. If you think about it, old houses should have them on almost every circuit. Its one problem I'm having with flat rate pricing vs t&m. I agree with Marc about up selling. This job is an up sell from replacing a breaker to replacing the panel. I'm sure most would agree that it would be a good idea to replace an old Zinsco panel.

 

[electricmanscott]

Scott the fact you could not find the problem does not convince me that they trip for 'no' reason.

Who says I haven't found the problem? And i never said they trip for no reason. Transformers often cause tripping. Problem found. :grin:


The real question is....was there even a "problem" to begin with. From my experience and from unscientific polling of other ec's I say no.

I am all for AFCI's and even their associated addtional costs, when they are perfected. The fact is they are not in my view.