Panel replacement criteria

[jeff48356]

When determining whether a person's electrical panel should be replaced, what standards or criteria do you use?

For me, I would recommend an upgrade if any of the following:
1) FPE or Zinsco brand
2) Any split-bus panel
3) Any panel rated less than 100 amps
4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload)
5) Any older panel for which replacement breakers are not readily available at big-box stores.

 

[jim dungar]

4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload)

My house has a 20yr old 200A QO loadcenter with a 100 breaker feeding a 55yr old ITE Pushmatic panel. I guess I need to replace both of them.
But I won't as I know the number of circuits has nothing to do with the actual loading on the panel.

 

[jeff48356]

My house has a 20yr old 200A QO loadcenter with a 100 breaker feeding a 55yr old ITE Pushmatic panel. I guess I need to replace both of them.
But I won't as I know the number of circuits has nothing to do with the actual loading on the panel.

Oops, I left out the word "older". I was referring to the 60 or 100A panels where people have other small sub-panels (4-6 fuses or breakers) attached to them.

 

[Coppersmith]

When determining whether a person's electrical panel should be replaced, what standards or criteria do you use?

For me, I would recommend an upgrade if any of the following:
1) FPE or Zinsco brand - absolutely
2) Any split-bus panel - no
3) Any [older] panel rated less than 100 amps [with subpanels attached] - no
4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload) - No unless there is an actual overload.
5) Any older panel for which replacement breakers are not readily available at big-box stores. - probably, but I never see this except for one pushmatic panel I saw.

I recommend replacing panels if they are dangerous. If they are older but still functional and safe I don't because in my experience, people will not change a panel unless (a) it is on fire; or (b) their insurance company will not insure it.

 

[norcal]

What about other defunct names such as, Wadsworth, General Switch, would you recommend replacement? Around me, those two are unheard of, FPE, Bulldog/ ITE Pushmatic are pretty uncommon, but Zinsco/Sylvania is pretty well represented.

 

[macmikeman]

I change out panels when the busbars are melted down , or additional space is required. Never did one because it was made by any one company.

 

[blkmagik21]

If a panel is older not a QO or a CH panel and is over 40 years old, is recommended a replacement. Or at minimum replacing the breakers. A lot of older panels don’t trip like they should after so many years of operation.

If they have a Zinsco or an FPE panel then I recommend immediate change of their panel.

I do recommend that split bus panels be changed but let them know it’s not a dire need. Just that they have no “main” breaker and if something fails inside the panel you can’t turn it off besides pulling the meter. (The same can still happen with a main as well, I know but it’s way less common) the main breaker gives a customer peace of mind.

Fuse panels I recommend be changed out because they are older than the dinosaurs that installed them. But in all seriousness when they are used right, they are very safe. But all to often I have came and seen pennies, nickels, beer caps, etc jammed in the fuse sockets. They switched from a type a base to a type b base for fuses at one point which helped this not be as much an issue. But then people just jammed smaller items in them. The real danger also lies in the fact that it is way to easy for a homeowner to change the size of the fuse. I’ve came into houses and seen many 30 ampere screw in fuses on 14 wire.

Among any of the above, also any panel that is humming, or has considerate damage from over heating, arcing, or water damage, I recommend replacement.

What do you normally charge for a 200 ampere panel change in your area?

Do you charge a base price for the panel and then charge for additionals like new water bond, new ground rods, etc?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[petersonra]

When determining whether a person's electrical panel should be replaced, what standards or criteria do you use?

For me, I would recommend an upgrade if any of the following:
1) FPE or Zinsco brand

Only some of them are a problem. Why replace all of them unless there is some 3rd party demanding it.

2) Any split-bus panel

This is not a safety hazard nor a limitation. Just something uncommon these days.

3) Any panel rated less than 100 amps

Unless there is a need for more current why? If you need more current you will probably have to increase the service size anyway.

4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload)

How would this be an overload? As long as everything is protected with the properly rated OCPD there is no danger.

5) Any older panel for which replacement breakers are not readily available at big-box stores.

Why? If the HO needs a new CB he can go to the electrical distributor or the internet just as easily as he can go to big orange.

I think you are making too big of a sweep. Most of these things are indicators that you might want to take a closer look but to me they do not seem like they should spell and automatic panel change out which often comes with all kinds of other issues like GFCI, AFCI, etc.

 

[jeff48356]

Fuse panels I recommend be changed out because they are older than the dinosaurs that installed them. But in all seriousness when they are used right, they are very safe. But all to often I have came and seen pennies, nickels, beer caps, etc jammed in the fuse sockets. They switched from a type a base to a type b base for fuses at one point which helped this not be as much an issue. But then people just jammed smaller items in them. The real danger also lies in the fact that it is way to easy for a homeowner to change the size of the fuse. I’ve came into houses and seen many 30 ampere screw in fuses on 14 wire.

Among any of the above, also any panel that is humming, or has considerate damage from over heating, arcing, or water damage, I recommend replacement.

What do you normally charge for a 200 ampere panel change in your area?

Do you charge a base price for the panel and then charge for additionals like new water bond, new ground rods, etc?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On fuses, I agree with you that they are safe when used properly. But the problem is, most homeowners (especially nowadays) have no clue what size fuse to use for each of the circuits in their house, and don't know how to determine such. Insurance companies know this, and that people use the wrong sizes as a result, so they stopped writing policies unless homeowners have their panels upgraded.

I charge $1500 for a 200-amp panel upgrade. But most upgrades in my area (Detroit suburbs) are 150 amps ($1200). Since most appliances are gas-fired rather than electric, 200 amps is seldom necessary for any older home that requires a service change. In fact, the drops and laterals are only good for 150 amps, so a 200A panel wouldn't have any benefit. The grounding system is part of the price. I always upgrade that with every upgrade, as required by local codes.

If I wire a new house, then that gets a 200A service automatically. I quote the house wiring job, plus $1500 for the 200A service.

 

[Coppersmith]

I charge $1500 for a 200-amp panel upgrade. But most upgrades in my area (Detroit suburbs) are 150 amps ($1200).

Why do you charge less to install a 150 amp panel? The 200 amp panels cost the same and are the same amount of work to install.

Since most appliances are gas-fired rather than electric, 200 amps is seldom necessary for any older home that requires a service change. In fact, the drops and laterals are only good for 150 amps, so a 200A panel wouldn't have any benefit.

What is necessary and what people want are entirely different. I have never had anybody who wanted an upgrade ask for 150 amp panel. They always ask for a 200. Since there is no difference in costs, and a greater variety of 200 amp products are available, I give them 200 amps. POCO's wire size is not a factor. It's up to POCO to make it the correct size the match the service on the building. Many times I've notified them of an upgrade and they have declined to do anything but should their lines burn up, it's their problem. I do warn people with 125 amp services that upgrading is usually not necessary and triggers additional work that I have to charge them for. (Local rule: I'm required to upgrade 3 wire dryer and oven circuits to 4 wire.)

The grounding system is part of the price. I always upgrade that with every upgrade, as required by local codes.

I will bring the grounding system into compliance but not change anything if it is already compliant.

 

[blkmagik21]

A typical panel change only here with a 200 ampere panel is 2700 plus about 250 for ground rods 250 for the waterbond and also 150 for the Electrical permit. If the meterbase needs changed it’s about 900 more


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blkmagik21]

We used to have to change old 3 wire circuits to 4 wire. Now it’s recommended to do so but not a requirement really unless it’s an easy change. Then more often than not. The inspector will require it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ptonsparky]

When determining whether a person's electrical panel should be replaced, what standards or criteria do you use?

For me, I would recommend an upgrade if any of the following:
1) FPE or Zinsco brand
2) Any split-bus panel
3) Any panel rated less than 100 amps
4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload)
5) Any older panel for which replacement breakers are not readily available at big-box stores.

1)
2). Why is it suddenly unsafe now if it was installed properly at the time?
3). “
4). “. We finished off the basement. Number of circuits is no indication of overload. What is the difference if I have a single 60 space panel vs a 42 and 18?
5).

The type of problem I was called for would have a lot to do with the recommendation.

 

[romex jockey]

1) FPE or Zinsco brand

I had one job where the insurance man said 'delete all red handeled breakers' , but could not distiguish FPE from Challengers.....

2) Any split-bus panel

One HI demanded i change out a SB panel due to 'no main breaker'


3) Any panel rated less than 100 amps

always an issue presented, by sorts that could google copy/paste demand load programs quicker than i could reference it in the NEC


4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload)

also an HI 'requirement' in my experience


5) Any older panel for which replacement breakers are not readily available at big-box stores.


A recent HI report ,along with panel pictures, explained how Bulldog panels no longer market breakers, although the pix clearly showed after market (greyer,rounded handels) installed

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

1)
What is the difference if I have a single 60 space panel vs a 42 and 18?

neatness.....?

~RJ~

 

[ptonsparky]

neatness.....?

~RJ~

They all look good from here.

 

[Frank DuVal]

When determining whether a person's electrical panel should be replaced, what standards or criteria do you use?

For me, I would recommend an upgrade if any of the following:
1) FPE or Zinsco brand Possibly
2) Any split-bus panel No
3) Any panel rated less than 100 amps No
4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload) No
5) Any older panel for which replacement breakers are not readily available at big-box stores. No

Around here the power company supplies meter bases. They do not have 150 amp bases, so every panel change is up to 200 amps!

 

[growler]

Around here the power company supplies meter bases. They do not have 150 amp bases, so every panel change is up to 200 amps!

I have never seen a 150 amp meter base ( doubt if the ever made one).

It is common to use the 200 amp meter base for a 150 amp service. The size of the meter base doesn't have anything to do with the service size as long as it's big enough for the load.

That same 200 amp meter base would be needed even if the panel main was 125 amps.

 

[readydave8]

4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload)

no

 

[ggunn]

When determining whether a person's electrical panel should be replaced, what standards or criteria do you use?

For me, I would recommend an upgrade if any of the following:

4) Any panel where there are sub-panels attached to it. (Indicates possible overload)

Why? Subpanels are totally legit as long as conductors and busbars are protected.