Panel Upgrade,

[hbiss]

Problem is that the NEC is silent on the issue. Other than saying that NM can't be used in damp or wet locations, it leaves installations like this where cables enter an outside enclosure up to the imagination of the inspector.

-Hal

 

[infinity]

Problem is that the NEC is silent on the issue. Other than saying that NM can't be used in damp or wet locations, it leaves installations like this where cables enter an outside enclosure up to the imagination of the inspector.

-Hal

Given that just about no one has ever seen an issue with NM cable entering the back of an enclosure or box this should be a non-issue.

 

[Fred B]

So then, if you trim it and seal it up are you violate UL listings cause it doesn’t have air ventilation.
And if airspace is the only issue, he’s covering up an old panel. There’s a lot of airspace back there

Whether a panel listed for surface mount can be installed as a recessed panel not sure of listing limitations but the 2023 NEC states:
"312.2 Damp or Wet Locations.
In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least 6-mm (1⁄4-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations."

If panel is recessed it is no longer surface mount and section doesn't apply, But OP stated:

replace it with a surface-mount panel

 

[Fred B]

Given that just about no one has ever seen an issue with NM cable entering the back of an enclosure or box this should be a non-issue.

What sort of connectors are you using to secure the NM to the enclosure? A typical NM connector will let water enter on a surface mount box or enclosure. But if enclosure is set back in wall or fully recessed the NM connector is not exposed, and as long as a weather tight cover is applied the NM wouldn't be exposed to moisture.

 

[curt swartz]

What sort of connectors are you using to secure the NM to the enclosure? A typical NM connector will let water enter on a surface mount box or enclosure. But if enclosure is set back in wall or fully recessed the NM connector is not exposed, and as long as a weather tight cover is applied the NM wouldn't be exposed to moisture.

I take it you have never installed NM cable?

If entering a surface mount enclosure you put a bead of caulk around the hole in the wall the cable passes through. Water will never touch the cable or enter the building.

 

[infinity]

What sort of connectors are you using to secure the NM to the enclosure? A typical NM connector will let water enter on a surface mount box or enclosure. But if enclosure is set back in wall or fully recessed the NM connector is not exposed, and as long as a weather tight cover is applied the NM wouldn't be exposed to moisture.

What curt said about caulk or somemother sealant. Also for a panel if the entry is below live parts cable entries are not required to be listed for wet locations.

So back to the OP the inspector is allowing the NM cable within the void but wants wet location connectors which would be required for any wiring method above or adjacent to the live parts. If the cables enter the panel enclosure below the live parts a standard NM cable connector can be used.

 

[Fred B]

I take it you have never installed NM cable?

If entering a surface mount enclosure you put a bead of caulk around the hole in the wall the cable passes through. Water will never touch the cable or enter the building.

Not exposed. Have used short nipples to get inside wall with NM, but Mostly will use UF and appropriate gland. Have seen a lot of failed receptacles and switches with installation as described by water entry from rear of box. Pulled one cover off and had water run out at least to the depth of the rear NM connector entry. Of coarse if all is concerned about is the first year of operation then whatever you want.

 

[AC\DC]

Whether a panel listed for surface mount can be installed as a recessed panel not sure of listing limitations but the 2023 NEC states:
"312.2 Damp or Wet Locations.
In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least 6-mm (1⁄4-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations."

If panel is recessed it is no longer surface mount and section doesn't apply, But OP stated:

OK, if it’s surfacemount with no trim, what happens if you trim around it now it’s technically semi recessed

 

[hbiss]

Also for a panel if the entry is below live parts cable entries are not required to be listed for wet locations.

Hence the invention of that bib gizmo that covers all your cables that you bring into the bottom of the panel.

-Hal

 

[Deltaforce]

If entering a surface mount enclosure you put a bead of caulk around the hole in the wall the cable passes through. Water will never touch the cable or enter the building.

Caulk not listed, inspector may say
Despite NM connector weatherproof, the panel inside itself a wet location and protection for NM there?

 

[infinity]

Despite NM connector weatherproof, the panel inside itself a wet location and protection for NM there?

The inside of the panel is not a wet location.

 

[Deltaforce]

The inside of the panel is not a wet location.

Panel Nema 3R design, R mean rain proof, not sealed, often have ventilation openings and/or weep holes (drain holes) at bottom

 

[infinity]

Panel Nema 3R design, R mean rain proof, not sealed, often have ventilation openings and/or weep holes (drain holes) at bottom

That doesn't mean that the inside of the panel is a wet location. There are millions of 3R panels located outdoors that are wired with NM cable branch circuits.

 

[Deltaforce]

That doesn't mean that the inside of the panel is a wet location. There are millions of 3R panels located outdoors that are wired with NM cable branch circuits.

No violation of 334.12(B)(4) ?

 

[infinity]

No violation of 334.12(B)(4) ?

The inside of the panel is a dry location.

 

[jap]

Stuff the 3r panel back in the hole that the flush mount panel came out of and seal around it.

Jap>

 

[rnaelectric]

I will get a photo and share it. The Romex is not exposed at all. It is still inside the wall, coming into the back of the new surface mount panel.

 

[infinity]

For me, a bead of silicone and call it a day.

 

[rnaelectric]

See photos as installed. Sheathing of NM cable is coming into the panel. NM has no exposure.

 

[infinity]

See photos as installed. Sheathing of NM cable is coming into the panel. NM has no exposure

What you have is a catch 22. The inspector wants wet location connectors above the live parts in an area that doesn't allow NM cable to be installed. He can't have it both ways. It's either a dry location or a wet location.

IMO if the panel is properly sealed the location behind it is dry and your current installation is code compliant.