Panel Upgrades on older homes regarding NEC

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Doug Lindsey

New member
Location
Arizona
My Question is; In Nogales, Az (where I have retired to) When upgrading the service entrance up to 200amps@240volts they require grounding and bonding of water pipes in the older homes however, they do not require rewire of home (no matter if the wiring is old knob and tube which some homes still have here on the border) Now if you bond or ground water pipes and someone using a hairdryer (example) with a bad or "open" conductor and they touch it and grab a metal faucit handle they obviously will get a shock. This is where the NEC in my opinion falls short. I feel when you bond, ground or upgrade the service to a home I feel at a minimum GFIC's should be installed per NEC however in Nogales the City does not require this BUT they require bonding and grounding (as they should) per NEC 2005 Maybe Im missing something here but for a house to qualify for a panel upgrade they should at minumum require GFIC's also since bonding and grounding of pipes is required right?
 
Cavie

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
How would you like to be made to install hurrican windows just because you want a new front door. Why stop at GFI's. Whay not require afc's and tamperproof recps?
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Doug, welcome to the forum! :)

Doug Lindsey said:
Maybe Im missing something here but for a house to qualify for a panel upgrade they should at minumum require GFIC's also since bonding and grounding of pipes is required right?
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You're certainly permitted to install them if the customer desires.

The NEC is a minimum, not a design manual. It's between the salesman/contractor/designer and the customer.

If 50% or more of the premises is being redone, then the entire structure must be brought to present-day codes here.
 
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suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
You'd most likely still be shocked by the pipes even if you didn't bond them. They could already be bonded via a water heater circuit. Or, if they are metal in the dirt (likely in an older house), they are grounded enough to shock you.

So I think in many older houses with ungrounded wiring (before pipe bonding was required), you're already susceptible to shocks and bonding the pipe won't change that (but it will help their fault clearing ability). Adding GFCI's is a good idea regardless.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Doug Lindsey said:
My Question is; In Nogales, Az (where I have retired to) When upgrading the service entrance up to 200amps@240volts they require grounding and bonding of water pipes in the older homes however, they do not require rewire of home (no matter if the wiring is old knob and tube which some homes still have here on the border) Now if you bond or ground water pipes and someone using a hairdryer (example) with a bad or "open" conductor and they touch it and grab a metal faucit handle they obviously will get a shock. This is where the NEC in my opinion falls short. I feel when you bond, ground or upgrade the service to a home I feel at a minimum GFIC's should be installed per NEC however in Nogales the City does not require this BUT they require bonding and grounding (as they should) per NEC 2005 Maybe Im missing something here but for a house to qualify for a panel upgrade they should at minumum require GFIC's also since bonding and grounding of pipes is required right?
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The problem or not, is that here in America were are protected by laws from requirements like this being imposed upon us. we are allowed to live as dangerously as we so chose as long as we do not endanger someone else in the process. which that said, imagine being required to bring your 1965 classic car up to todays safety and emission standards because you rebuilt the engine, you wouldn't be happy about that?

we are lucky we have such a Constitution that does (or is supposed to) protect us from such "padding of our world" type of laws.

If we wish to live in a safer house drive a safer car then it is our choice to bring it up to todays safer codes, but it is our choice not the choice of others.

As I have said before "Don't take my world and put me into a padded room" let me live life to the fullest that I may live it, and if that includes some dangerous living so be it.;)
 
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Buck Parrish

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
Doug Lindsey said:
My Question is; In Nogales, Az (where I have retired to) When upgrading the service entrance up to 200amps@240volts they require grounding and bonding of water pipes in the older homes however, they do not require rewire of home (no matter if the wiring is old knob and tube which some homes still have here on the border) Now if you bond or ground water pipes and someone using a hairdryer (example) with a bad or "open" conductor and they touch it and grab a metal faucit handle they obviously will get a shock. This is where the NEC in my opinion falls short. I feel when you bond, ground or upgrade the service to a home I feel at a minimum GFIC's should be installed per NEC however in Nogales the City does not require this BUT they require bonding and grounding (as they should) per NEC 2005 Maybe Im missing something here but for a house to qualify for a panel upgrade they should at minumum require GFIC's also since bonding and grounding of pipes is required right?
Click to expand...

If your wiring is that old. You may have had two prong outlets with no grounding conductor. If 3 prong outlets are installed (with out the equipment grd.) then gfci protection is required.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Buck Parrish said:
I did not see an exception. (two prong -to three prong) Unless your useing conduit. Which you might be because your awfully close to Chicago.;)
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No but he could put back in 2 prong, he could run new circuit, there are other options for dealing with ilegal installed 3-prong receptacles.

and even this close to Chi town, Indiana has a state wide code system, so romex is allowed state wide;)
 
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