Panelboard 6 feet of sink

[codequestion]

The GFCI protection has to do with using equipment within the proximity of the sink which may contain water. It's not about it being a wet location.

Ok well that analogy applies to panels? Panel within proximity of the sink which may contain water should have what gfci breakers or nema protect nema 4 to prevent proximity water damage to panel?

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[infinity]

Ok well that analogy applies to panels? Panel within proximity of the sink which may contain water should have what gfci breakers or nema protect nema 4 to prevent proximity water damage to panel?

I understand your concern but it's not supported by the NEC. A panel simply located within 6' of a sink does not require anything special like a wet location design. Now if the area were subject to frequent wash down with a hose you may have a different issue but the simple proximity to the sink does not change the fact that the panel is not in a wet location.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Ok well that analogy applies to panels? Panel within proximity of the sink which may contain water should have what gfci breakers or nema protect nema 4 to prevent proximity water damage to panel?

At best, the breakers are "switches." By your logic, what do you do about the kitchen sink garbage disposal switch that is located in the kitchen counter backsplash, within ready reach of someone running water from a faucet into the disposal side of the sink?

Every place I have ever seen has a simple snap switch mounted in a standard coverplate.

 

[jumper]

Ok well that analogy applies to panels? Panel within proximity of the sink which may contain water should have what gfci breakers or nema protect nema 4 to prevent proximity water damage to panel?

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I gotta go, but let me say that talking and discussing these issues is way better than us just answering your questions.

This way you will learn codes and the reasoning behind them.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Codequestion, here's a challenge for you. Try to find a rule in the NEC that requires that a SWITCH, by itself, must be GFCI protected.

You'll be able to imagine branch circuit configurations that have GFCI protection that includes a switch under the protection. . . but, is there a rule in the NEC that requires a switch, because of its location, that must be GFCI protected, even if the outlet that the switch controls does not require GFCI protection?

 

[codequestion]

At best, the breakers are "switches." By your logic, what do you do about the kitchen sink garbage disposal switch that is located in the kitchen counter backsplash, within ready reach of someone running water from a faucet into the disposal side of the sink?

Every place I have ever seen has a simple snap switch mounted in a standard coverplate.

Those single pole switch is not same as circuit breaker panelboard. Single pole switch have covercplares to completely prevent water from entering. Panelboards have slight gaps on side of panels where water can get in causing fire shorts anything.

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[GoldDigger]

FWIW, I think that you may find that the answer to the above question (#25) is different for AFCI, at least in some code cycles.
Why might that be?

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[jumper]

Those single pole switch is not same as circuit breaker panelboard. Single pole switch have covercplares to completely prevent water from entering. Panelboards have slight gaps on side of panels where water can get in causing fire shorts anything.

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Cover plates do not make snap switches water proof by any means, slightly resistant at best, but no better than panel covers.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Those single pole switch is not same as circuit breaker panelboard.

The commodity single pole 15 or 20 Amp circuit breaker includes a SWD rating as part of its listing. SWD means that the breaker has been evaluated and listed for Switching Duty.

Your scenario of a panel in a kitchen directly implies a fair quantity of 15 and 20 Amp single pole breakers in the panelboard.

Single pole switch have covercplares to completely prevent water from entering. Panelboards have slight gaps on side of panels where water can get in causing fire shorts anything.

.
Now that's just silly. The generic snap switch, arguably the most common installed throughout the US is a so-called "framed toggle". The bat handle is inside a decorative frame that has gaps. Look at one the next time you use one. The gaps between the bat handle and the frame lead directly inside the switch body. . . . unlike the gap between the frame and the coverplate.

AND, it is the bat handle of a framed toggle that a person with wet hands is operating while at the same time adjusting the garbage disposal water flow through metal valves with the other. . . a CLASSIC through torso fault path right across the heart.

AND, inspite of this, the is no NEC rule requiring the GFCI protection of the switch.

 

[romex jockey]

If the forum does not mind, I'll play devil's advocate

A wet location would require WR GFCI's & Gasketed cover plates, and NEMA 3R gear

That doesn't usually happen residentially , nor can one read into the NEC where one would be required to pursue such an install

Least of all trying to sell it to mama pajama's dream kitchen

Ain't happening....

That said, Commercial is a tad different , everything is stainless steel wash down rated and installed TO be wet. If you've ever walked into a commercial kitchen after a busy night, your first thought may even be 'firehose'

'Wet Location' isn't always outside & becomes interpretational here

Pipe and compression hardware to w/p device boxes with w/p covers are not only not uncommon, they're good practice considering what can be viewed in such environs that is not

(I literally scrapped out a 4sq of burnt bread crumbs around a commercial kitchen gfci the other day that had entered into the small holes in it)

Further,i feel it is prudent to have the OCPD's w/in sight of the many hardwires appliances to meet 110.25 as well as part III of 422 , yet not installed in the action area itself

~RJ~

 

[codequestion]

At best, the breakers are "switches." By your logic, what do you do about the kitchen sink garbage disposal switch that is located in the kitchen counter backsplash, within ready reach of someone running water from a faucet into the disposal side of the sink?

Every place I have ever seen has a simple snap switch mounted in a standard coverplate.

How can you compare manual swtich with cover located over kitchen sink or kitchen with auto trip circuit breakers which have controls and senses current? Should the circuit breakers so called special switches be protected proper nema rating for that reason alone?

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[ActionDave]

How can you compare manual swtich with cover located over kitchen sink or kitchen with auto trip circuit breakers which have controls and senses current? Should the circuit breakers so called special switches be protected proper nema rating for that reason alone?

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I would have no problem with an electrical panel installed right next to a sink. I've seen panels and lots of other electrical equipment installed near sinks, never been a problem. If there was a problem it would be acted on and the code would reflect that.

 

[user 100]

I find that in commercial kitchens the working space is almost always encroached upon by some of the things that you've mentioned. The sink doesn't have much to do with it.

Within 6' feet of a sink is not a wet location.

Next to sink 6 feet does have saturation with water..

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As pointed out by infinity and others, within 6ft of a sink is not an automatic wet loc per the art 100 def. If there is significant enough saturation emanating from a standard sink to cause major problems to a panel/light switch etc....nearby, then there are much bigger issues going on

The commodity single pole 15 or 20 Amp circuit breaker includes a SWD rating as part of its listing. SWD means that the breaker has been evaluated and listed for Switching Duty.

Your scenario of a panel in a kitchen directly implies a fair quantity of 15 and 20 Amp single pole breakers in the panelboard.


.
Now that's just silly. The generic snap switch, arguably the most common installed throughout the US is a so-called "framed toggle". The bat handle is inside a decorative frame that has gaps. Look at one the next time you use one. The gaps between the bat handle and the frame lead directly inside the switch body. . . . unlike the gap between the frame and the coverplate.

AND, it is the bat handle of a framed toggle that a person with wet hands is operating while at the same time adjusting the garbage disposal water flow through metal valves with the other. . . a CLASSIC through torso fault path right across the heart.

AND, inspite of this, the is no NEC rule requiring the GFCI protection of the switch.

Nor should there be.

Panelboards have slight gaps on side of panels where water can get in causing fire shorts anything.

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Highly unlikely in the scenario described- a quicly evaporating small droplet may hit the outer cover every once in a good while, but that's going to be about it from a nearby standard sink - Nema 3R not needed.

Heck if your really worried about water collecting, get 'em to pop in a couple more weep holes.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Should the circuit breakers so called special switches be protected proper nema rating for that reason alone?

You started off with how GFCI protection requires "wet location" labeling and equipment rated for wet location for panelboards in the area. I'm simply illustrating the inconsistencies.

 

[romex jockey]

Codequestion, here's a challenge for you. Try to find a rule in the NEC that requires that a SWITCH, by itself, must be GFCI protected.

You'll be able to imagine branch circuit configurations that have GFCI protection that includes a switch under the protection. . . but, is there a rule in the NEC that requires a switch, because of its location, that must be GFCI protected, even if the outlet that the switch controls does not require GFCI protection?

I can't

680.22 was the closest I came

but as the line side of any gfci receptacle could be switched , I've no claim

~RJ~

 

[publicgood]

I understand your concern but it's not supported by the NEC. A panel simply located within 6' of a sink does not require anything special like a wet location design. Now if the area were subject to frequent wash down with a hose you may have a different issue but the simple proximity to the sink does not change the fact that the panel is not in a wet location.

As stated so far by many on this post, not a wet location...even if less than 6 ft to edge of sink. As long as the panel has proper clearances, NEMA 1.

As highlighted by infinity here, wash down would be a different story. For that question to be answered review the architectural (may have enhanced wall/floor construction for a wet location) and talk to the user. These cases might change the intended environment, which drives the appropriate NEMA ratings. This may also drive things like in-use covers.

Regarding GFCI...code doesn’t care about distance to a sink in a commercial kitchen. All recepts are required to be GFCI.

That said, the code is only a minimum.