Panelboard height

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coreyp

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I am being asked to install a panelboard outside servicing an outdoor bar for a reasteraunt. They are building a basically a hut that will be open from all sides with no vertical walls to put a panel in. The only place to put the panel would be under the bar in the base cabinets.

My questions are as follows:
1. I know per 240.24A that the maximum height I can install a overcurrent device is 6'-7" to center of handle. Is there a minimum height it can be installed?

2. I know per 408.37 that I can install a panel outdoors (wet/damp location) as long as I meet 312.2(A) which says use a weatherproof enclosure and the proper conduit fittings. Is there any gotta's I should be aware of?

Any additional input is welcome.
 
Let me clarify. It would be flush mounted in the base cabinets via a blanked off section of the casework.
 
coreyp said:
Let me clarify. It would be flush mounted in the base cabinets via a blanked off section of the casework.
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If I understand that would not meet 110.26(E) headroom and what about 110.26(A)(2)...etc...I probably don't get the picture. I am an Inspector and seeing is unbelievable.
 
There is not a minimum height and sound like what you plan on doing is not a violation
 
The commercial kitchen I am installing now has 3 food service lines. Built in these lines are 100 amp panels located 6 inches above the floor in the end of the stainless cabinets. I am not sure if the local AHJ will say anything but its being supplied by the food service company, I am just feeding it. We will see if this fly's..
 
Deli style casework for grocery store equipment does this all the time. The Starbucks you see in grocery stores also have the panel mounted under the counter top. You should be okay as long as you cover your wet/damp location issues.
 
paul said:
Deli style casework for grocery store equipment does this all the time. The Starbucks you see in grocery stores also have the panel mounted under the counter top. You should be okay as long as you cover your wet/damp location issues.
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I am trying to understand this situation but I keep getting an image of a panel under a counter that is say 3' high. If this is correct I would like to know where in the code this is permissible unless that counter sticks out less than 6" from the edge of the panel. Any help here.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I am trying to understand this situation but I keep getting an image of a panel under a counter that is say 3' high. If this is correct I would like to know where in the code this is permissible unless that counter sticks out less than 6" from the edge of the panel. Any help here.
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The 6" you are referring to is for electrical equipment......not countertops
110.26(A)(3)
 
big vic said:
The 6" you are referring to is for electrical equipment......not countertops
110.26(A)(3)
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Correct. I had a brain lapse but what about the rest of the statement

I am trying to understand this situation but I keep getting an image of a panel under a counter that is say 3' high. If this is correct I would like to know where in the code this is permissible. I understand that you must have a 6'6" headroom. There is no minimum height of the panel but you still must maintain the 6'6". Yes????
 
Dennis Alwon said:
There is no minimum height of the panel but you still must maintain the 6'6". Yes????
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First off, I believe this to be classified as an outdoor installation. Dedicated equipment space is not the same for outdoor installations, as it falls under 110.26(F)(2), and not 110.26(F)(1).
 
Smart $ said:
First off, I believe this to be classified as an outdoor installation.
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Why would you say that?

There is a roof above the panel.

Might call it a damp location, maybe even a wet location but I would not call it an an outdoor location.

If it is truly an 'outdoor' location there will be little need for electricity as most electric bar equipment I have seen says 'Indoor use only'.

Blenders, glass washers, registers, signs etc.

JMO
 
iwire said:
Why would you say that?

There is a roof above the panel.

Might call it a damp location, maybe even a wet location but I would not call it an an outdoor location.

If it is truly an 'outdoor' location there will be little need for electricity as most electric bar equipment I have seen says 'Indoor use only'.

Blenders, glass washers, registers, signs etc.

JMO
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Hmmm... that's a good argument.

It's mostly the picture in my mind that says it's outdoor... no doors (or walls) = not inside (and in Ohio, short of the owner posting signs to the contrary, I would be permitted to smoke under that roof :grin: ). Somewhat depends on how much area the roof covers, and the position of the panel with respect to being exposed to weather-related elements. In my mind I'm picturing the bar being relatively closer to the edge, away from the center. Ultimately, it will be the call of the AHJ.
 
Smart $ said:
First off, I believe this to be classified as an outdoor installation. Dedicated equipment space is not the same for outdoor installations, as it falls under 110.26(F)(2), and not 110.26(F)(1).
Click to expand...

I read both sections but it still reads to me 6'6" inside or out. Why would they allow less headroom outside-- that makes no sense at all. Normally outside there is no need to require a minimum height, however I don't see why 110.26(E)(1) should not apply also.

Edited-- 110.26(E)(1) I originally had (F)(1)
 
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Dennis Alwon said:
I read both sections but it still reads to me 6'6" inside or out. Why would they allow less headroom outside-- that makes no sense at all. Normally outside there is no need to require a minimum height, however I don't see why 110.26(F)(1) should not apply als.
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My comment was not about headroom—110.26(E)—or any requirement before or after 110.26(F), which is regarding Dedicated Equipment Space immediately above and below the panel. 110.26(F)(1) provides restrictions for such space indoors, whereas 110.26(F)(2) essentially says there are no restrictions when outdoor... but the requirements of 110.26(A) through (E) must still be met whether it is indoor or outdoor.
 
coreyp said:
I am being asked to install a panelboard outside servicing an outdoor bar for a reasteraunt. They are building a basically a hut that will be open from all sides with no vertical walls to put a panel in. The only place to put the panel would be under the bar in the base cabinets.

My questions are as follows:
1. I know per 240.24A that the maximum height I can install a overcurrent device is 6'-7" to center of handle. Is there a minimum height it can be installed?

2. I know per 408.37 that I can install a panel outdoors (wet/damp location) as long as I meet 312.2(A) which says use a weatherproof enclosure and the proper conduit fittings. Is there any gotta's I should be aware of?

Any additional input is welcome.
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I think we may have gotten away from the original question a bit.

IMO you have a few options.

1) Locate a frestanding electrical cabinet (for example a NEMA 4X or 12 rated enclosure) with your service panel inside, then run conduit from that enclosure to the outdoor bar.

2) Place an appropriately rated panel on a pole in close proximity to the outdoor bar.

3) Locate an appropriately rated panel on the outside wall of the main structure, assuming that this outdoor bar can be considered a temporary/portable installation and is in close proximity to the main structure.
 
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