A large 480V 800A Square D I Line panel has been installed. The bottom plate of the panel has been cut out so that there is about an inch or so remaining around the edges of the plate. The panel was set on the floor right over top of the incoming pipes. I feel this installation is in violation of the NEC for a couple of reasons and I just wanted to get other opinions about the issue. Sorry but a picture is not available of the install. One article that I would refer to is 300.10 What do you all think?
Panelboard Question
- Thread starter wpaul29
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Re: Panelboard Question
May be if the manufacturer doesn't allow it to be modified. But Switchboards and motor control centers are all open at the bottom in order to stub up conduit into the inside of the enclosure.
There are tall panelboards which are as tall as switchboards and MCCs and are also set on the floor. But to cut the bottom out one would most certainly have to comply with the manufacturer's instructions to do so.
May be if the manufacturer doesn't allow it to be modified. But Switchboards and motor control centers are all open at the bottom in order to stub up conduit into the inside of the enclosure.
There are tall panelboards which are as tall as switchboards and MCCs and are also set on the floor. But to cut the bottom out one would most certainly have to comply with the manufacturer's instructions to do so.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Panelboard Question
I ran across this at another job. We called the manufacturer for advice. Their tech said that they actually permitted this type of installation as long as certain instructions were followed, and that in the southern portion of the country, this was not an uncommon type of installation. They actually sent a letter to us to put in the file for this installation. I know that the inspection agency did not accept the letter and had corrections made - which were very costly.
I ran across this at another job. We called the manufacturer for advice. Their tech said that they actually permitted this type of installation as long as certain instructions were followed, and that in the southern portion of the country, this was not an uncommon type of installation. They actually sent a letter to us to put in the file for this installation. I know that the inspection agency did not accept the letter and had corrections made - which were very costly.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Panelboard Question
Regarding the 3" question, conduits can only stub up 3" into the bottom of an open switchboard or panelboard. Take a look at 408.5.
I think that this is a common misconception. where does it say that a panelboard can not be punched or cut in the field to facilitate a certain installation? This is a common practice that happens everyday. In fact, most of the panelboards and switchboards that we install have no provisions for conduit or wireway entry. We always field cut or punch them at the point of installation.
Regarding the 3" question, conduits can only stub up 3" into the bottom of an open switchboard or panelboard. Take a look at 408.5.
sparky_magoo
Senior Member
- Location
- Reno
Re: Panelboard Question
My shop frequently has a local sheet metal shop modify panelboards. They are stretched out above the top to accomadate contactors and Phoenix blocks.
We have never been called for this practise. It surprised me when I first saw it.
My shop frequently has a local sheet metal shop modify panelboards. They are stretched out above the top to accomadate contactors and Phoenix blocks.
We have never been called for this practise. It surprised me when I first saw it.
Re: Panelboard Question
I have never indicated that you cant punch out the panel or cut it out.
"I think that this is a common misconception. where does it say that a panelboard can not be punched or cut in the field to facilitate a certain installation? This is a common practice that happens everyday. In fact, most of the panelboards and switchboards that we install have no provisions for conduit or wireway entry. We always field cut or punch them at the point of installation."
Obviously if the panel does not have concentrics you need to knock it out. There is no misconception about that on my part in fact I prefer no concentrics myself, and you can cut it out to route feeders if you set it on top of a trough or something. I am not talking about that. The issue at hand is that the entire bottom panel has been cut out leaving a 1" rim around the edge and just set on the floor overtop of the pipes. Basically instead of knocking the panel out for each pipe this was done instead.
Also 408.5 says nothing about the 3" rule in the 2002 NEC and this install is not a switchboard as the NEC defines it, it is a panelboard.
Basically I reference article 300.10 in the 2002 NEC and also refer to 110.12 Hope this clears things up a bit infinity.
I have never indicated that you cant punch out the panel or cut it out.
"I think that this is a common misconception. where does it say that a panelboard can not be punched or cut in the field to facilitate a certain installation? This is a common practice that happens everyday. In fact, most of the panelboards and switchboards that we install have no provisions for conduit or wireway entry. We always field cut or punch them at the point of installation."
Obviously if the panel does not have concentrics you need to knock it out. There is no misconception about that on my part in fact I prefer no concentrics myself, and you can cut it out to route feeders if you set it on top of a trough or something. I am not talking about that. The issue at hand is that the entire bottom panel has been cut out leaving a 1" rim around the edge and just set on the floor overtop of the pipes. Basically instead of knocking the panel out for each pipe this was done instead.
Also 408.5 says nothing about the 3" rule in the 2002 NEC and this install is not a switchboard as the NEC defines it, it is a panelboard.
Basically I reference article 300.10 in the 2002 NEC and also refer to 110.12 Hope this clears things up a bit infinity.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Panelboard Question
Don
Often large equipment is installed with an open bottom and no mechanical connection of the raceways. Where are the code sections that permit this?
Don
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: Panelboard Question
wpaul29,
You say you would have no problem if the bottom was "cut out" when mounted to a trough, how is that any different than this installation?
As far as UL is concerned there has been no modification to the panelboard. What has been field cut is the electrical cabinet/cutout box (UL Guide CYIV) that the panelboard (UL Guide QEUY) is mounted into.
wpaul29,
You say you would have no problem if the bottom was "cut out" when mounted to a trough, how is that any different than this installation?
As far as UL is concerned there has been no modification to the panelboard. What has been field cut is the electrical cabinet/cutout box (UL Guide CYIV) that the panelboard (UL Guide QEUY) is mounted into.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Panelboard Question
As with most of the posts on this forum, I was referencing the 2005 NEC. 408.5 applies to both panelboards and switchboards. This was a code change in the 2005 NEC to include panelboards as well, and to not limit this requirement to only switchboards.
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: Panelboard Question
Don,
Don,
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Panelboard Question
Dave,
They are listed below.
Don
Dave,
They are listed below.
Don
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Panelboard Question
I would bet it is in the evaluation of the product by the listing lab, that the equipment has been investigated for use with no bottom.
I could have sworn that open bottom sw/bds were covered in the Code, but I can't find it. The only thing there is about sw/bds over combustible material.
I would bet it is in the evaluation of the product by the listing lab, that the equipment has been investigated for use with no bottom.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Panelboard Question
Where are the code sections that prohibit this?
Re: Panelboard Question
Let me just say what I think of this install without beating around the bush. Basically I think it is a piss poor installation. As the code says 110.12 a neat and workmanlike manner. I think panelboards should not been set on the floor in industrial applications because many times the floor is sprayed off and washed with water. Therefore the chance for water to enter the pipes that have been cut off at the floor and rust the bottom of the panel. At least put some strut on the floor for this reason. With switchboards you usually see a pad that is 4" above the finished floor for this reason. It is just a poor job and I fear and think many people will agree that our industry seems to be giving away quality workmanship for quantity with all the so called fast track jobs now a days and I think this is one example. There are at least between 20 to 30 panels like this and everyone has the pipes cut off at the floor with no bell fittings or insuliners. There is all kinds of dirt and crud in the bottom of the panel to. This example is just one of hundreds that I have seen on this particular job. There obviously was no quality control and it is clearly evident. Well enough ranting. Basically I think a picture would really prove my point if I can I will take one soon. Thanks for the feedback.
Let me just say what I think of this install without beating around the bush. Basically I think it is a piss poor installation. As the code says 110.12 a neat and workmanlike manner. I think panelboards should not been set on the floor in industrial applications because many times the floor is sprayed off and washed with water. Therefore the chance for water to enter the pipes that have been cut off at the floor and rust the bottom of the panel. At least put some strut on the floor for this reason. With switchboards you usually see a pad that is 4" above the finished floor for this reason. It is just a poor job and I fear and think many people will agree that our industry seems to be giving away quality workmanship for quantity with all the so called fast track jobs now a days and I think this is one example. There are at least between 20 to 30 panels like this and everyone has the pipes cut off at the floor with no bell fittings or insuliners. There is all kinds of dirt and crud in the bottom of the panel to. This example is just one of hundreds that I have seen on this particular job. There obviously was no quality control and it is clearly evident. Well enough ranting. Basically I think a picture would really prove my point if I can I will take one soon. Thanks for the feedback.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Panelboard Question
In this case, because of the wording in 300.10, we need a specific permission to install raceways that are not mechanically secured to the enclosure.
In this case, because of the wording in 300.10, we need a specific permission to install raceways that are not mechanically secured to the enclosure.
Don
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Panelboard Question
The problem that I have with that, is that some large equipment is designed without a bottom and intended for bottom conduit entry. Without a specific permission, this type of installation is not code compliant. I must be missing something here, because open bottom gear is very common for large installations.
Don
The problem that I have with that, is that some large equipment is designed without a bottom and intended for bottom conduit entry. Without a specific permission, this type of installation is not code compliant. I must be missing something here, because open bottom gear is very common for large installations.
Don
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