Panelboard Question

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Re: Panelboard Question

wpaul29, I agree with you 100%. This type of panel isn't made to be set on the ground. If they wanted to put a tough below and feed the pipes from the ground then up to the panel with nipples then I believe this is a lot safer. Now on this panel if you want to fix that bottom panel all you have to do is order a new bottom or top cover. They just screw on from the sides. You can get them with knockout or without. Again I think it wasn't a very well planned installing or they didn't know what they were doing.
Jim
 
Re: Panelboard Question

Don once again I refer you to my previous post. This is not a swicthgear it is a panelboard and if you take notice most switchgear that I have seen and worked on is set on a pad that is 4" above finished floor. Like you say switchgear is designed with open entry for this kind of install there is no problem with that on my part. When I get a chance I will find in the code where that time of istall is permitted once again thanks for the feedback.
 
Re: Panelboard Question

i installed an eaton panel center in a dairy queen directly to the floor. parallel 500's tons of branch circuits (like 50 pipes in slab) all into the unit which had no bottom. built and shipped from eaton to be setup exactly how it was.

truthfully i dont see how it could have been mounted higher anyway. we needed a crane a quit a few overweight electricians just to maneuver the thing.

passed..which doesnt say much.
 
Re: Panelboard Question

This is not a swicthgear it is a panelboard
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To me that does not make any difference. There is no minimum height requirement for either.
Like you say switchgear is designed with open entry for this kind of install there is no problem with that on my part.
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I agree that it is a common installation, but I don't find a code section that specifically permits it as required by 300.10.
Don
 
Re: Panelboard Question

All should remember that a switchboard & a panelboard are not the same thing.

I think that panelboards are limited to 1600A maximum & are intended to be mounted in a "can" or "tub" that is intended to be mounted on the wall.

I think that switchboards are intended to be floor-mounted & can have an open bottom. If there is a max. ampere rating for switchboards, it is way up there, like 5000 - 6000A.

Now, my main disclaimer - to differentiate between these pieces of equipment, one needs to check out the UL requirements for manufacturers.
 
Re: Panelboard Question

Don,

300.10 is talking about "metal raceways and enclosures" only. In order to comply with code, a bonding jumper is used. When the conduits are pvc, nothing is required. The conduits are mechanically secured via the underground installation.
 
Re: Panelboard Question

OK I think we have the article with permission for this type of install but there is a catch. 110.3 (B)Installation and use. Listed or labled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labelling. So basically if the instructions say you can do it and it doesn't violate any specified code articles then you can do it, but for this install they would have needed to purchase the extension for this type of install from Square D. PlnOldRick's install of the Eaton panel was specifically made for the purpose and the instructions from what I gather were to mount the panel on the floor but this specific panel was not meant to be mounted on the floor without ordering extra parts.

In PlnOldRick's situation I still would have been leery about mounting a metal panel on the floor because you know as well as I fast food restaurants spray off the floor and eventually the bottom of the panel would rust I would site 110.12 (C) for that well once again this has been a great thread and the feedback has been interesting to see others points of view. Thanks a bunch.
 
Re: Panelboard Question

Dave,
300.10 is talking about "metal raceways and enclosures" only.
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That section requires that the raceway be secured to the enclosure. The concrete is not the enclosure.
300.10 ... Unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code, raceways and cable assemblies shall be mechanically secured to boxes, fittings, cabinets, and other enclosures.
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Don
 
Re: Panelboard Question

Paul,
OK I think we have the article with permission for this type of install but there is a catch. 110.3 (B)
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I don't see that as a "specific permission" as required in the wording in 300.10. Lacking a specific code section permitting this type of installation, they are in violation.
Don
 
Re: Panelboard Question

Don,

First;
Where does this statement have it's base in the NEC?
Where are the code sections that permit this?
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Second;
Please explain why we are permitted to install pvc underground to a open bottom panel with a rmc 90 coming up through the concrete and terminating with a bonding bushing only. This type of installation has been permitted through the years without objection. Like I said before, "300.10 Electrical Continuity of Metal Raceways and Enclosures." is about metal raceways and metal enclosures only!

Also, why would this article be necessary if it wasn't allowed?
408.5 Clearance for Conductor Entering Bus Enclosures. Where conduits or other raceways enter a switchboard, floor-standing panelboard, or similar enclosure at the bottom, sufficient space shall be provided to permit installation of conductors in the enclosure. The wiring space shall not be less than shown in Table 408.5 where the conduit or raceways enter or leave the enclosure below the busbars, their supports, or other obstructions. The conduit or raceways, including their end fittings, shall not rise more than 75 mm (3 in.) above the bottom of the enclosure.
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Re: Panelboard Question

Dave,
You may have a point as to 300.10 not applying to PVC conduit, but it does apply to metal conduit, and most of the open bottom stub-ups in this area are metallic, even if the main run is PVC.
First;
Where does this statement have it's base in the NEC?
quote:

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Where are the code sections that permit this?

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The basis is 300.10 that says the metal conduits must be secured to the enclosure unless otherwise permitted in this Code. I do not find any such permission.

As far as 408.5, I guess that it could apply when nonmetallic conduits are stubbed up in open bottom enclosures. I just don't find a rule that permits this when the stub-ups are metallic, and that type of installation is very common.
Don

[ October 19, 2005, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
 
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