Partially Covered Junction Box 314.29

[jap]

Absolutely, and if what is there was the intended look and finish, the tile should have simply been notched to be a couple of inches wider than the box. It would then be possible to not only completely access the box, but to easily install any fixture regardless of purpose.

This is is no better than bad DIY tile work. The tile setter saved 2 minutes by not notching the tile.

I wouldn't even call it bad DIY tile work.

Looks decent to me.

It's simply a punch list item.

The Electrician didn't install the obstruction, nor did he make the box inaccessible, so, like I said earlier, don't be siting code violations to a tile layer.

Simply put on the punch list that the tile needs to be cut out around to outlet and let him fix it and go on.

JAP>

 

[jap]

Plus, if a tile layer did notch around one of my boxes by "a couple of inches" as was put earlier, then I would classify it as a bad DIY tile job.

Jap>

 

[Craigv]

Plus, if a tile layer did notch around one of my boxes by "a couple of inches" as was put earlier, then I would classify it as a bad DIY tile job.

Jap>

I wrote "a couple of inches" because there needs to be room to mount an emergency light. An inch on each side is "a couple of inches". How exactly does the amount of clearance classify this as DIY or not? The tile must be removed to a dimension larger than the emergency light if it's going to be installed without a gap at the top.

As as for this being a punch list item, it was. The installer pushed back. I guess he always partially covers boxes. And nobody uses those other mounting screws anyways...

 

[jap]

I wrote "a couple of inches" because there needs to be room to mount an emergency light. An inch on each side is "a couple of inches". How exactly does the amount of clearance classify this as DIY or not? The tile must be removed to a dimension larger than the emergency light if it's going to be installed without a gap at the top.

As as for this being a punch list item, it was. The installer pushed back. I guess he always partially covers boxes. And nobody uses those other mounting screws anyways...

The electrician is not the tile layer.

A tile layer could care less what's going to mount on a box.

His only job would be to lay as close to a box as possible.

Would you not find it odd if a sheet rocker or tile layer left a 1" gap around all of your receptacle and switch boxes?

The OP indicated he cited a violation of the code because there was no access to the wiring.

Although I disagree, even if there wasn't access to the wires, is not the electricians fault.

The OP also indicated he was the owner.

If I were the owner, I wouldn't have cited a code violation on the electrician.

I would have asked the tile layer to go back and cut the tile out around the box, and, if I was the one paying the bills, and, he pushed back, holding back on his final payment mike make him think twice about it.

JAP>

 

[jap]

I wrote "a couple of inches" because there needs to be room to mount an emergency light. The tile must be removed to a dimension larger than the emergency light if it's going to be installed without a gap at the top.

Even if this were a full 4 square box, which I seriously doubt it is, a "couple of inches" would be a 6x6 cut back around the 4 square box.

Unless there'd some special type of emergency light that I'm not aware of, even that wouldn't be enough.

Better off to add tile around the box than to do that.

JAP>

 

[jap]

I'd almost bet that's a 1g mud ring or a 1g masonry box roughed in the wall.

At most the tile might be covering 1/2" of the lower part of the box or mud ring.

That's no reason to be trashing a tile layers craftsmanship.

JAP>

 

[Craigv]

Even if this were a full 4 square box, which I seriously doubt it is, a "couple of inches" would be a 6x6 cut back around the 4 square box.

Unless there'd some special type of emergency light that I'm not aware of, even that wouldn't be enough.

Better off to add tile around the box than to do that.

JAP>

Just about any treatment would be better than what's there now. You're taking "a couple of inches" literally, when the point I made in the same comments was to make room to mount whatever is going there. Even a notch only large enough to actually access the entire box would be better than covering half of it. If the box was installed 6 inches lower, I guess it would just be gone.

 

[Craigv]

I'd almost bet that's a 1g mud ring or a 1g masonry box roughed in the wall.

At most the tile might be covering 1/2" of the lower part of the box or mud ring.

That's no reason to be trashing a tile layers craftsmanship.

JAP>

This is not craftsmanship. There's no excuse for partially covering a box. Period. Tile is easily cut. And this work is supposed to be done before the mud dries, not argued by the installer when he's called on it by the owner paying for the work.

 

[kwired]

Hard to put blame on anyone without knowing more about how we arrived with what we have here.

If new construction, possible the box was set at wrong height to begin with, and tile setter wasn't sure exactly what to do with it when his tile ended at the level it ended at.

Same thing with existing construction except can't really blame anyone for wrong box height.

Should a suspended ceiling (or even a hard ceiling) be intended to end up sitting right on the tile - there is going to be a problem mounting an emergency light over that box regardless of how the tile was cut out.

 

[jap]

This is not craftsmanship. There's no excuse for partially covering a box. Period. Tile is easily cut. And this work is supposed to be done before the mud dries, not argued by the installer when he's called on it by the owner paying for the work.

You call that box in the 1st post unacceptable?

Very few times have I ever installed receptacles in a tile backsplash where I didn't have to nibble out the tile where the screw holes were,and, I've worked around some pretty salty tile layers.

To label the tile layer as a bad craftsman based on what we know is unfair.

Truth be known,I'd bet the electrician in this scenario is at fault, not the tile layer.

If this outlet is for an emergency light the box should be just below the ceiling height,which if the tile is at it's finished height, the electrician missed it by about a foot and his emergency light is going to end up above the ceiling.

If the outlet is no where near the ceiling height then the designer missed it by not having the tile go high enough to cover the box or the electrician missed it by not roughing in the box low enough.

Not often you rough in a 4sq box for an emergency light.
It's generally a 1g box or a 4sq with a mud ring

So If it is actually a 4sq box more than likely it was there to begin with

Regardless, the tile layer is not at fault in either case because he did not cover up the box which is what this post is all about.

The OP needs to tell us who he sited the violation to that pushed back on the subject.

Did he call out the electrician? Or the tile layer?

JAP>

 

[tortuga]

This is a 4x4 box partially covered by a piece of tile. This box is intended for an emergency light. I tagged this as a violation of 314.29. The installer claims it is not in violation as he can reach the wiring. To me that's ridiculous but as my wife reminds me I've been wrong once or twice before. Please let me know what you think. Thank you.

If I recall correctly the great state of Louisiana has adopted the 2014 NEC as part of its building codes: http://lsuccc.dps.louisiana.gov/codes.html
the codes apply to all construction and thus all trades.
Drywallers, masons, finishers and, tile layers are frequently cutting finish around electrical boxes and enclosures. This work does not require an electrical license (in Louisiana and most states) and is typically expected to be done by other trades.
The NEC is part of the building code and applies to all trades not just electricians.
A license is required to make an 'electrical installation' in Louisiana and most states. But the NEC applies to all construction by law.
A "Journeyman" tile/drywall wall/plasterer worker should be trained on the NEC in terms of finishing around electrical boxes, cutouts and panelboards.
Also consider
110.3(B)

 

[Craigv]

If I recall correctly the great state of Louisiana has adopted the 2014 NEC as part of its building codes: http://lsuccc.dps.louisiana.gov/codes.html
the codes apply to all construction and thus all trades.
Drywallers, masons, finishers and, tile layers are frequently cutting finish around electrical boxes and enclosures. This work does not require an electrical license (in Louisiana and most states) and is typically expected to be done by other trades.
The NEC is part of the building code and applies to all trades not just electricians.
A license is required to make an 'electrical installation' in Louisiana and most states. But the NEC applies to all construction by law.
A "Journeyman" tile/drywall wall/plasterer worker should be trained on the NEC in terms of finishing around electrical boxes, cutouts and panelboards.
Also consider
110.3(B)

110.12. And I'm certain there's a standard for the installation of wall finishing materials.
314.20 may also apply if by some fluke a partially covered box is still deemed "accessible". I'm reminded of all the times members here post photos of boxes partially covered by door trim, baseboards, built-in shelving, etc. and how it's mocked as amateur or DIY work. This is no different and was done by a paid worker...I won't call him a professional. No tilesetter should have to be told not to do this.

 

[Craigv]

You call that box in the 1st post unacceptable?

Very few times have I ever installed receptacles in a tile backsplash where I didn't have to nibble out the tile where the screw holes were,and, I've worked around some pretty salty tile layers.

To label the tile layer as a bad craftsman based on what we know is unfair.

Truth be known,I'd bet the electrician in this scenario is at fault, not the tile layer.

If this outlet is for an emergency light the box should be just below the ceiling height,which if the tile is at it's finished height, the electrician missed it by about a foot and his emergency light is going to end up above the ceiling.

If the outlet is no where near the ceiling height then the designer missed it by not having the tile go high enough to cover the box or the electrician missed it by not roughing in the box low enough.

Not often you rough in a 4sq box for an emergency light.
It's generally a 1g box or a 4sq with a mud ring

So If it is actually a 4sq box more than likely it was there to begin with

Regardless, the tile layer is not at fault in either case because he did not cover up the box which is what this post is all about.

The OP needs to tell us who he sited the violation to that pushed back on the subject.

Did he call out the electrician? Or the tile layer?

JAP>

At no point have I mentioned the electrician who installed the box, yet in this and a previous post you're commenting as if I did. The box was obviously installed first. The tile setter came in and tiled over it. He is to blame for that, and any conjecture about the height of the box is irrelevant to the point of the tilesetter's lack of craftsmanship. The OP stated that he spoke to the "installer", and my assumption, which could be wrong, is that he means the tile contractor, as they did the work that caused the problem.

Saying that the tile setter "did not cover up the box" is beyond reason. At what point would it be "covered" and unacceptable to you? What's the threshold of acceptable access? An inch visible? A half inch? Should the electrician have to use forceps to access the wire before you call it inaccessible? Code doesn't explicitly cover any of this because it assumes (incorrectly, apparently) that professionals follow 110.12 and won't do stupid things like tile halfway over a device box. What if that box was supposed to house receptacles? Would you be happy walking into a kitchen remodel and seeing a half dozen counter boxes half-covered with tile before you install switches and receptacles? Nibbling out a little tile is expected. This is far beyond a nibble...and what's the plan if you try to nibble the example in post #1 and crack a 12x24 tile due to some other guy's shoddy installation?

If this is all good by you, that's fine with me. I, and the contractors I work with and the subs they hire would never allow this to get to the point where the owner/customer is arguing with the subs. They and I get it fixed and looking as it should for professional work.

 

[jap]

Nibbling out a little tile is expected.

You cant have it both ways.

Either the tile layers you work with are professionals as you say where no nibbling is required, or, the professional tile layers you work with are just like all the professional tile layers WE work with.

This is being blown way out of proportion.

I still want to hear from the OP who he sited the code violation to.

I just cant see a tile layer putting up an argument with an owner that he wouldn't cut the tile out to expose all of the opening if the owner actually requested it.

If that is the case, then, I would agree that is a conversation that generally does not take place, but, the box in the picture is not covered enough to say that the wiring is not accessible.

A better argument if was to be had would be that the tile covers up the mounting screws.


JAP>

 

[Craigv]

You cant have it both ways.

Either the tile layers you work with are professionals as you say where no nibbling is required, or, the professional tile layers you work with are just like all the professional tile layers WE work with.

This is being blown way out of proportion.

I still want to hear from the OP who he sited the code violation to.

I just cant see a tile layer putting up an argument with an owner that he wouldn't cut the tile out to expose all of the opening if the owner actually requested it.

If that is the case, then, I would agree that is a conversation that generally does not take place, but, the box in the picture is not covered enough to say that the wiring is not accessible.

A better argument if was to be had would be that the tile covers up the mounting screws.


JAP>

I said this example is unprofessional. That's simply an opinion. It's ironic that you've written several long paragraphs of disagreement about my personal opinion, then say it's blown way out of proportion. We don't have to agree on where our thresholds for work quality lie.

 

[ptonsparky]

New construction, the tile setter would or should be held accountable for the electricians failure to verify, and locate his box properly. Simple.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

IMO, ths is a clear violation. How can you install anything on the box that also covers the hidden part. If the tile is more than a 1/4" than the box is in violation per 314.20. To fix add some tile up and around the box, add a box extender and then mount the light. You also need to chip away the tile that extends over the box

314.20 Flush-Mounted Installations. Installations within or
behind a surface of concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other
noncombustible material, including boxes employing a flushtype
cover or faceplate, shall be made so that the front edge of
the box, plaster ring, extension ring, or listed extender will not
be set back of the finished surface more than 6 mm (1∕4 in.).

 

[sameguy]

Punch list item, give them (GC) a date you will be installing that fixture in writing. After that date you can push the GC to hire a second tile Co. if that is the last thing before you leave the job. Then don't worry about it, if they don't get a co they don't get a co. Better keep good records in your day log.

 

[sameguy]

Mud rings are round corners for mud, tile rings are square corners for tile.
As to nibbling my 20oz hammer is what I used to nibble with. Normally cracking the tiles resulting in me getting an extra to remove and reinstall the fixture. This is done only after exhausting the push on the GC.

 

[jap]

IMO, ths is a clear violation. How can you install anything on the box that also covers the hidden part. If the tile is more than a 1/4" than the box is in violation per 314.20. To fix add some tile up and around the box, add a box extender and then mount the light. You also need to chip away the tile that extends over the box

This is not a violation at all because there's nothing mounted on the box and the project is not finished yet.


JAP>