Pass or Fail Real Life

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electricmanscott said:
The op's pic shows a violation for sure. It is one of those accepted violations in this area and I have no problem with it.
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Around here, no new installation would pass without having the romex secured above the panel. Old work gets some leeway, because everyone knows you can't get new results out of old work.

If it's easy to solve in the new installation environment, I see no reason to pass it and not get these issues nipped in the bud from the building's inception. To me, it seems like from the inception of the building you would be steering the place towards this.

Would it be a pain in the rear to correct the original installation in this thread? Maybe. Would the installer ever do that again? No way.

That is one method of progress, IMO.
 
Scott
My posts do not show the minute details of my understanding, compassion towards contractors/installers, or as much detail of real world situations as I would love to discuss. There is not enough time or space on Mike's server for this to occur.


I completely understand what you are trying to say, and I absolutely understand what the real world situation is out there. Remember, I have been at this for a very long time.
I am not only compassionate about the industry, I am compassionate towards all the individuals who are trying so hard to make a living and make the right installations while trying to make a living.


What I am trying to put forth in with my response, is that there has been a general trend in this industry to try and hide behind the "real world" aspect of installing work in a method that is not at all hard or costly, yet saying, this is the way it is.

If it is the way it is, this trend needs to stop. Yes, I do understand that not all installations are perfect. But the simple stuff should not be disregarded because it is what everyone else does and is becoming acceptable.
There are many times as an installer, inspector and consultant that I have not been a nit picky visual observer of the misinstallation of electrical work that may not be a real safety hazard, as long as the final product would not be visible after the final (such as stapling of NM, AC, or MC cables to framing members).

Finally:
the OP's picture in particular is what I am discussing. Here is an installation that is finished and visible for the world to see.
Homeowners, handymen, inspectors, kids, other electricians will see this application for years to come. Yet for pennies it could easily have been properly installed, and the PRIDE of our industry would be intact.

But...alas, maybe pride is not so important anymore and the name of the game is simpily to make $$$.
 
SEO said:
Question do the inspectors in your area require securing any type of cable or raceway system or any electrical equipment? Where do they draw the line?
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I guess the line is drawn at the panel. I will say though that I would have secured those cables if this was a new installation. But I still don't see it as a big deal.

My inspectors are usually to busy citing things that are not even violations to be concerned with the actual code. :roll: :D
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
The perfect or real world being brought up here is just a smoke screen that some are hiding behind. Of course this is simply my opinion.;)
I do not see how hard or difficult or expensive or real world it is to not perform or install to some of the easiest requirements we see in the NEC. If it is really that difficult, there are easier jobs...that pay less of course.





I know the above mentioned gentleman very well. When they were active in daily inspections, they were setting the foundation of a great industry, and making hard decisions inspecting in the field. They would not have walked by this kind of installation.
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I'll tell Mark you say hello :)
 
First of all I would like to say that I agree with everything that Pierre has said.

I also would fail this inspection. Like I've said before, when you're talking to someone it depends on which part of the country you're standing in, on just how stupid you sound.

Here in CA where we have a lot of seismic movement and while I cannot site a code section, I would have trouble with the way the cable is draped over the edge of that block.

I think it was Pierre that said something like this, but if all you want to do is get in, get out, and get paid, there are a lot easier jobs out there. I know that many of you on this forum don't think that way, but as inspectors we see many guys that do and many of us take great pride in our work too.
 
Osb

Osb

__dan said:
The OSB board is rated for 30 days of moisture, not 30 years.
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ultramegabob said:
Where do you find that rating?
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It's the manufacturer's rating. OSB is rated for jobsite conditions while it gets installed, 30 days. Check with the manufacturer and ask them the conditions where they will replace the OSB for delamination. OSB is not weather rated or for long term exposure to moisture, which is constantly migrating out of the face of the block. I expect that install to delaminate and the manufacturer to respond that it's not rated for direct contact with a moisture bearing surface. Improperly applied.

That panel can be expected to be hanging by the NM after 30 years, especially over lots of installs done the same way consistently. Garbage.
 
One more issue I want to discuss in regards to this thread.

The original question was Pass or Fail Real Life.


I hate the term Fail.

One of the ways I tried to deal with non-compliant work was in the way it was discussed.
I rarely use the term fail. It is way to negative, and most times smaller issues such as the one we are discussing did not result in the job "failing".

I try to use the term correction as much as possible. If I received opposition to the discussion, then I would have to write a notice. I changed the title of the notice to notice of non-compliance. Some building officials did not recognize this title and wanted something more severe, but most did not have an issue as long as the work was corrected.


The OP's picture does not show the whole installation. If the worst portion of the job is what is pictured, I would definitely discuss it with the installer and ask for correction, not make a big deal of it.

But to tell a guy that has pride in his work, who has made a small mistake that he failed the job, and attitudes change. Even worse, some may loose confidence in themselves or a customer may find out and loose confidence in them as well.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
One more issue I want to discuss in regards to this thread.

The original question was Pass or Fail Real Life.


I hate the term Fail.

One of the ways I tried to deal with non-compliant work was in the way it was discussed.
I rarely use the term fail. It is way to negative, and most times smaller issues such as the one we are discussing did not result in the job "failing".

I try to use the term correction as much as possible. If I received opposition to the discussion, then I would have to write a notice. I changed the title of the notice to notice of non-compliance. Some building officials did not recognize this title and wanted something more severe, but most did not have an issue as long as the work was corrected.


The OP's picture does not show the whole installation. If the worst portion of the job is what is pictured, I would definitely discuss it with the installer and ask for correction, not make a big deal of it.

But to tell a guy that has pride in his work, who has made a small mistake that he failed the job, and attitudes change. Even worse, some may loose confidence in themselves or a customer may find out and loose confidence in them as well.
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excellent IMHO
 
I think that you guys have a great attitude, and that's great sometimes, especially when the job has some time constraints or issues (assuming that the contractor is as willing to work with you as you are to work with him). But overall, I also think that its ok to fail sometimes, and its good to keep guys from letting their heads swell up too big. I would rather be told my installation is not up to par, then have some idiot rubber stamp my work just because he doesn't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. How else will I learn ?
 
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Pierre C Belarge said:
One more issue I want to discuss in regards to this thread.

The original question was Pass or Fail Real Life.


I hate the term Fail.

One of the ways I tried to deal with non-compliant work was in the way it was discussed.
I rarely use the term fail. It is way to negative, and most times smaller issues such as the one we are discussing did not result in the job "failing".

I try to use the term correction as much as possible. If I received opposition to the discussion, then I would have to write a notice. I changed the title of the notice to notice of non-compliance. Some building officials did not recognize this title and wanted something more severe, but most did not have an issue as long as the work was corrected.


The OP's picture does not show the whole installation. If the worst portion of the job is what is pictured, I would definitely discuss it with the installer and ask for correction, not make a big deal of it.

But to tell a guy that has pride in his work, who has made a small mistake that he failed the job, and attitudes change. Even worse, some may loose confidence in themselves or a customer may find out and loose confidence in them as well.
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Pierre I agree with most of your post and I know that everyone makes mistakes(inspectors included) but how could an installer take pride in his work when he installs a job that he knows is not code complient? I wouldn't make a big deal out of it either but I would leave a field correction notice with the code sections listed and require a re-inspection.
 
nakulak said:
I think that you guys have a great attitude, and that's great sometimes, especially when the job has some time constraints or issues (assuming that the contractor is as willing to work with you as you are to work with him). But overall, I also think that its ok to fail sometimes, and its good to keep guys from letting their heads swell up too big. I would rather be told my installation is not up to par, then have some idiot rubber stamp my work just because he doesn't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. How else will I learn ?
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Some idiot ???????????????????
 
Just to be clear, while I don't see the op's original picture to be that big of a deal I would not actually do that. I just found a pic of a panel I installed a few years ago.

DSC00502.jpg
 
nakulak said:
I think that you guys have a great attitude, and that's great sometimes, especially when the job has some time constraints or issues (assuming that the contractor is as willing to work with you as you are to work with him). But overall, I also think that its ok to fail sometimes, and its good to keep guys from letting their heads swell up too big. I would rather be told my installation is not up to par, then have some idiot rubber stamp my work just because he doesn't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. How else will I learn ?
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Think of mistakes made in anything we do, like the following analogy.

Most of us drive a vehicle every day. During the year, we (or at least I do) make several mistakes. I will tell you what some of my driving mistakes have been.
Roll thru a stop sign; sometimes at a traffic light I forget and think I am at a stop sign, look both ways and go; move lanes without signaling, etc...


I commit these errors for many reasons, very busy, behind schedule, my mind is deep in thought of a very serious issue, etc...
We are all busy, and we all have serious issues to deal with at one time or another.

So, we do not need to worry about a guys head swelling or making sure he knows who is boss. I am acutely aware that people are not always thinking about what they are doing, as I am one of them myself.

That is when I make a comment and discuss what can be done to resolve it. (yes, I make mistakes when inspecting)
It is only when the discussion comes to an impass, do I deal with this in a more formal manner.

Am I perfect - I wish. ;) But, I am aware of life's tribulations
 
I think the word "mistake" gets taken out of context a lot. It's funny that I just had this converstation this morning with my BO.

You will usually find that if you are not making mistakes, you are not pushing your self hard enough and just doing what is comfortable. I learned that back when I was learning to ride dirt bikes, I was told by an old timer, "if you're not crashing, you're not trying anything new."

Some contractors understand it better than others, but I work for you, I'm just another member of your team, another set of eyes as it were. If I point out that you didn't staple your cable above the panel and you say "shoot I forgot, let me get that" it sure goes a lot farther than "nobody's ever made me do that before."

There is a huge difference between a mistake and just being lazy.
 
nakulak said:
But overall, I also think that its ok to fail sometimes, and its good to keep guys from letting their heads swell up too big.
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Even if the work is compliant every time?

I would rather be told my installation is not up to par, then have some idiot rubber stamp my work just because he doesn't want to ruffle anyone's feathers.
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If I don't get a thorough inspection, I feel ripped off.
 
Just a quick question, can the neutral be bare as in this scenario? I never use bare neutrals like that so haven't ran into it. Just curious..
 
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