PE Liability

[jkim780]

1) Can architects stamps MEP drawings? I am in Illinois, and I was suprised that many archtects belived that they think they do. I looked up the state professional regulation, it state that professional engineers are still required to seal drawings even if they are sealed by an architec. Any thoughts?

If my immediate supervisor is not licensed and I am the only licensed engineer in house

2) If he did the ectrical design without my acknowledge, and it goes out without my review. Am I still responsible for that?

3) If he made changes in my design, so called value engineering, without my permission because he is my boss, am I still responsible for all these changes?

4) The architect believes that all these actions are ok because they think they can seal the MEP drawings, thus they don't ask us to seal any technical submissions. So far no one object on this, but it seems not right to me. Any thoughts?

 

[ron]

Re: PE Liability

In some jurisdictions, Architects can sign and seal any type of construction document. In some jurisdictions PE's can sign and seal any type of construction document, even if it is out of their area of expertise.
But.... there are some jurisdictions that require each type of drawing to be signed by a licensed professional that specializes in that trade.
For example, the last time I did work in California, for some reason they insisted that a structural PE sign the structural drawings and not an electrical PE (I can't imagine why).
So the answer is, it depends.
I believe, most laws require that the person that signs and seals a document, must have been the principle designer and have been involved from the concept through the end. It doesn't mean that you can't get input from other design folks, but the signer is the line in the sand!

 

[rr]

Re: PE Liability

This is what I found at under the Professional Engineering Act: http://www.ildpr.com/WHO/pe.asp

225 ILCS 325/14) (from Ch. 111, par. 5214)
(Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2010)
Sec. 14. Seal. Every professional engineer shall have a seal or stamp, the print of which shall be reproducible and contain the name of the professional engineer, the professional engineer's license number, and the words "Licensed Professional Engineer of Illinois". Any reproducible stamp heretofore authorized under the laws of this state for use by a professional engineer, including those with the words "Registered Professional Engineer of Illinois", shall serve the same purpose as the seal provided for by this Act. When technical submissions are prepared utilizing a computer or other electronic means, the seal may be generated by the computer. Signatures generated by computer shall not be permitted.
The use of a professional engineer's seal on technical submissions constitutes a representation by the professional engineer that the work has been prepared by or under the personal supervision of the professional engineer or developed in conjunction with the use of accepted engineering standards. The use of the seal further represents that the work has been prepared and administered in accordance with the standards of reasonable professional skill and diligence.
It is unlawful to affix one's seal to technical submissions if it masks the true identity of the person who actually exercised direction, control and supervision of the preparation of such work. A professional engineer who seals and signs technical submissions is not responsible for damage caused by subsequent changes to or uses of those technical submissions, where the subsequent changes or uses, including changes or uses made by State or local governmental agencies, are not authorized or approved by the professional engineer who originally sealed and signed the technical submissions.
(Source: P.A. 91‑92, eff. 1‑1‑00; 92‑145, eff. 1‑1‑02.)

 

[charlie b]

Re: PE Liability

In every discussion of the liability of a Professional Engineer, I strongly recommend that we all keep the following TRUTH in mind: The seal and signature of a PE means one thing, and only that one thing. It asserts, for all the world to see, that

This work was done by me, or under my supervision.

MEP (Mechanical, Electrical, and Plumbing) Engineering work cannot be supervised by a person who does not hold a PE license, nor by a person who lacks the professional knowledge and experience in the subject area of the documents. So to address your issues,
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1) No, an architect cannot seal an MEP document.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2) No, if another person submits a design without your knowledge or review, you are not responsible. In fact, you are required by law to refuse to seal and sign such work.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">3) No, an unlicensed person cannot change documents that you have designed, without your knowledge and consent. To do so is a violation of state law. Once again, you are required by law to refuse to seal and sign such work.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">4) There is a Code of Ethics to which all PEs are called upon to subscribe (either by force of law or by administrative rules of the profession). It requires that any PE who becomes aware of an unlicensed person practicing, or even offering to practice Professional Engineer report the facts to the Department of Professional Regulation (or whatever the department is called in your state. That?s the name of department in Illinois)</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Charles E. Beck, P.E.

 

[iwire]

Re: PE Liability

Originally posted by charlie b:
In every discussion of the liability of a Professional Engineer, I strongly recommend that we all keep the following TRUTH in mind: The seal and signature of a PE means one thing, and only that one thing. It asserts, for all the world to see, that

This work was done by me, or under my supervision.

Charlie how does this fit in?

The use of a professional engineer's seal on technical submissions constitutes a representation by the professional engineer that the work has been prepared by or under the personal supervision of the professional engineer or developed in conjunction with the use of accepted engineering standards.

 

[charlie b]

Re: PE Liability

Good question. What that phrase means to me is that if there is a standard method for performing an activity, then I don?t have to re-invent the wheel or prove that that method is valid, in order for me to use that method. One example is the use of a commercially available software package for performing fault current calculations. I can use the software, without performing a ?verification and validation? of the software, and still seal the output calculation.

 

[petersonra]

Re: PE Liability

I would think that you could extend this to work that is done in accordance with standards the PE approves.

It seems to me that if the engineer says "here is the standard you are to design by", that he would not have to personally cross every I and dot every T.

That is essentially what he is doing when he specifies piece of equipment. he does not personally design every MCC. He will typically write a spec that calls out what he wants and thenlet someone else do the detail work in accordance with his wishes.

 

[charlie b]

Re: PE Liability

Each engineer must decide for himself or herself what effort on their part is necessary and sufficient to constitute ?supervision? on their part. The essential ingredient to this stew is the engineer?s brain: it must be part of the recipe, and it must go into the pot early.

 

[rbalex]

Re: PE Liability

I personally subscribe to the Code of Ethics of the National Society of Professional Engineers. (The organization I hope to represent on any future NFPA TC appointments) It is supports Charlie 100%.

A proposed change to the California BORPE/LS Rules will also strengthen the requirements for Responsible Charge, but not quite to the degree of the NSPE.

I?m still absorbing the new 2005 Cal PELS Act and BORPE/LS Rules. There have been some changes about "practice overlap" but I'm not confident enough to discuss them at the moment.

 

[jkim780]

Re: PE Liability

Charlie b.

1) No, an architect cannot seal an MEP document.

I am not just talking about a separate MEP document. Their theory is that when MEP is part of whole design package, an architect seals the design package and they resume the whoel liability for the building.

2) No, if another person submits a design without your knowledge or review, you are not responsible. In fact, you are required by law to refuse to seal and sign such work.
3) No, an unlicensed person cannot change documents that you have designed, without your knowledge and consent. To do so is a violation of state law. Once again, you are required by law to refuse to seal and sign such work.

Well, the thing is they are not even asking us(engineers) to seal or sign the work. Like I mentioned above, an architect seals the package at the cover, and said he will take the whole responsiblity. They even said, we are just an element of a big firm, and under the employer's liability insurance. So, leagally we are not liable for whatsoever, and if something goes wrong, they will sue the company not the indivisuals. It seems ok leagally, but not professionally.

4) There is a Code of Ethics to which all PEs are called upon to subscribe (either by force of law or by administrative rules of the profession). It requires that any PE who becomes aware of an unlicensed person practicing, or even offering to practice Professional Engineer report the facts to the Department of Professional Regulation (or whatever the department is called in your state. That?s the name of department in Illinois)

Even if that is your boss, and your job is depending on it?

 

[petersonra]

Re: PE Liability

Originally posted by rbalex:
I personally subscribe to the Code of Ethics of the National Society of Professional Engineers. (The organization I hope to represent on any future NFPA TC appointments) It is supports Charlie 100%.

I like the part where PEs are directly or indirectly banned from making negative professional evaluations of other PEs. That really seems like a huge public service.

I can just see it now.

Hey Fred - I know you have worked with Joe quite a bit in the past. Can you recommend Joe do some PE work for us?

Fred knows Joe is a smuck and a moron to boot, but he has signed on to this monstrosity, so he cannot directly or indirectly let me know this. He is thus forced to wholeheartedly recomend Joe even though he knows Joe will design a building that will collapse the first time someone sneezes.

 

[iwire]

Re: PE Liability

Originally posted by charlie b:
One example is the use of a commercially available software package for performing fault current calculations. I can use the software, without performing a ?verification and validation? of the software, and still seal the output calculation.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

[charlie b]

Re: PE Liability

Originally posted by petersonra: I like the part where PEs are directly or indirectly banned from making negative professional evaluations of other PEs. That really seems like a huge public service.

Where did you see that line? That is not in the Code of Ethics. We cannot tell lies about another engineer, in the hopes that this will get us the job instead of the other person. But nothing prohibits us from giving a truthful, negative, professional evaluation of another PE. Of course, the other PE might take exception with the ?truthful? part, and bring a civil action against us.

 

[rbalex]

Re: PE Liability

Originally posted by petersonra:
... I like the part where PEs are directly or indirectly banned from making negative professional evaluations of other PEs. That really seems like a huge public service.

I can just see it now.

Hey Fred - I know you have worked with Joe quite a bit in the past. Can you recommend Joe do some PE work for us?

Fred knows Joe is a smuck and a moron to boot, but he has signed on to this monstrosity, so he cannot directly or indirectly let me know this. He is thus forced to wholeheartedly recomend Joe even though he knows Joe will design a building that will collapse the first time someone sneezes. [/QB]

I think you need to reread the Code:

6. Engineers shall not at tempt to obtain employment or advancement or professional engagements by untruthfully criticizing other engineers, or by other improper or questionable methods.
a. Engineers shall not request, propose, or accept a commission on a contingent basis under circumstances in which their judgment may be compromised.
b. Engineers in salaried positions shall accept part-time engineering work only to the extent consistent with policies of the employer and in accordance with ethical considerations.
c. Engineers shall not, without consent, use equipment, supplies, laboratory, or office facilities of an employer to carry on outside private practice.
7. Engineers shall not attempt to injure, maliciously or falsely , directly or indirectly, the professional reputation, prospects, practice, or employment of other engineers. Engineers who believe others are guilty of unethical or illegal practice shall present such information to the proper authority for action.
a. Engineers in private practice shall not review the work of another engineer for the same client, except with the knowledge of such engineer, or unless the connection of such engineer with the work has been terminated.
b. Engineers in governmental, industrial, or educational employ are entitled to review and evaluate the work of other engineers when so required by their employment duties.
c. Engineers in sales or industrial employ are entitled to make engineering comparisons of represented products with products of other suppliers.

I am not compelled in any way to recommend anyone, nor am I prohibited from stating their performance truthfully. The purpose of these sections to prohibit conflicts of interest.

 

[charlie b]

Re: PE Liability

Originally posted by jkim780: Well, the thing is they are not even asking us (engineers) to seal or sign the work. Like I mentioned above, an architect seals the package at the cover, and said he will take the whole responsibility.

I don?t think that is legal. You might put in a call to the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation, and see what they have to say on the topic.

(Speaking of reporting unethical behavior): Even if that is your boss, and your job is depending on it?

Yes. Your primary duty is to protect the health and safety of the public. If fulfillment of that duty puts you in fear for your own job, then you need to start looking for another job. It's a harsh statement, but when is duty not a harsh taskmaster?

 

[jtester]

Re: PE Liability

quote by charlie
1) No, an architect cannot seal an MEP document.
That must vary by State. In New Mexico an architect can seal engineering related drawings with a permitted value up to $400,000 and/or an occupant load of 50. Engineers who wish, can seal architectural plans as well as plans related to engineering disciplines other than their own, as long as they are prepared by themselves, or under their direct supervision. We call it incidental practice.
Janes Tester P.E.

 

[petersonra]

Re: PE Liability

Engineers in private practice shall not review the work of another engineer for the same client, except with the knowledge of such engineer, or unless the connection of such engineer with the work has been
terminated.

 

[rbalex]

Re: PE Liability

Originally posted by petersonra:
Engineers in private practice shall not review the work of another engineer for the same client, except with the knowledge of such engineer, or unless the connection of such engineer with the work has been
terminated.

So?

 

[petersonra]

Re: PE Liability

oops. I meant to close out after I read what I copied over and had erased what I typed. I guess I hit send instead.

I was going to ask why it is considered unethical to do this. it does not seem like something high on my list of evils.

 

[steve066]

Re: PE Liability

jkim780:

You should read the illinois "Design Code Manual". It will answer your question.
Illinois Design Code Manual

See Frequently asked questions #16, and #8.

Steve

Edit: also see questions 24, 28,& 30.

[ February 11, 2005, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: steve066 ]