PE signing plans

[SceneryDriver]

In a recent "Trading Post" post, a member asked sought a PE to stamp electrical and structural plans for solar installations.

Charlie B replied with:

"Since you seek someone to sign plans, and not to create the plans, this appears to be an invitation to do something that is unethical, and may even be illegal. Therefore, I am closing this thread.

In case you were unaware of this, when a PE seals and signs a document, it informs the world that, "this work was done by me, or under my supervision." Sealing and signing someone else's work is not something we can do."

How is reviewing a set of plans created by someone else and stamping them after proper review in any way unethical? It's done all the time - drafters / designers create a set of drawings for a project which are then sent to a PE for review, with the intent of getting the drawings stamped.

We do this all the time where I work; our company has an excellent working relationship with a structural engineer who reviews drawings for us from time to time. Occasionally, he asks for small changes to a part of a design, and we comply. Once the drawings are revised, we get a signed and sealed set from him. The project is then built exactly to that design. We also receive a set of the engineer's calcs, which we pass along to the client if requested.

I understand the practice of blindly stamping a set of drawings without proper review to be unethical, and possibly dangerous to the public. How is asking for a drawing review and stamp after due diligence (for a pre-agreed fixed price) unethical?


SceneryDriver

 

[MyCleveland]

May I ask how is it you are providing design services without having a staff PE at the start.
Do you advertise as a design build firm ?

I beleive in my state a company must register and disclose the engineer and receive approval to proceed.

What you seem to be describing is what I have always understood as “plan stamping”.
If the plans were stamped by one of your staff another engineer would only be looking over for say a peer or plan review.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

While that is often done, it is in violation of the engineering practices acts of a number of states. Those acts permit the PE to stamp designs that he did or that were done under his supervision. It does not permit a PE to stamp a drawing after he has reviewed them if he has not directed to creation of the drawings.
This is the language from one states architectural practices act. Many PE practices acts use the same general language.

An architect may not impress the seal or stamp, or knowingly permit it to be impressed or affixed, on drawings, specifications or other design documents which were not prepared by the architect or under his direct supervision.

 

[zbang]

May I ask how is it you are providing design services without having a staff PE at the start.

Because not everything involved in "design" needs to be done by a licensed professional. Assume a theatrical scenery designer designs an elaborate stage set which happens to include a cantilevered balcony. Many set designers are competent to design a safe balcony, however it's also common to still send the design to a PE for their review. The PE isn't reviewing the look of the overall design, they're reviewing the parts relevant to their profession. Or, the PE may take what the set designer sent and "design" something almost identical and stamp that. (As Don says, this may not be legal in every state.)

What you seem to be describing is what I have always understood as “plan stamping”.

There's "plan stamping" where a clerk simple applies the stamp and forges the signature, and there "plan stamping" where the owner of the stamp actually critically looks at what's presented and passed judgement on that (better to call that plan review).

 

[iceworm]

...We do this all the time where I work; our company has an excellent working relationship with a structural engineer who reviews drawings for us from time to time. Occasionally, he asks for small changes to a part of a design, and we comply. Once the drawings are revised, we get a signed and sealed set from him. The project is then built exactly to that design. We also receive a set of the engineer's calcs, which we pass along to the client if requested.

I understand the practice of blindly stamping a set of drawings without proper review to be unethical, and possibly dangerous to the public. How is asking for a drawing review and stamp after due diligence (for a pre-agreed fixed price) unethical? ...

Highlighting by me.

Just my opinion - which I likely will get thrashed for.

• You have a working relationship
• You make changes as he requests.
• He delivers a set of calcs.
• He delivers the sighed and sealed set.

All you are describing is a relationship where the designers and drafters get their pay check from different source than the engineer.

Oh wait - they both get their paychecks from the same source.

I would consider that close enough to "under his supervision".

Yes, I am a PE - about 30 years now.

 

[jaggedben]

I agree there is nothing unethical. Whether it is illegal may vary from state to state.

In California, engineering credentials are not required for design work on one and two family structures less than two stories (for example). And a licensed contractor is allowed to do design work for any project for which they've contracted for the work and hold the relevant license. (They are not allowed to do design work for another contractor.)

I don't believe that, where certain aspects of a project require engineering credentials, there is anything unethical about an engineer reviewing and stamping the relevant portion of the work. We have it done all the time. Most AHJs around here have guidelines for when they will require structural engineering review on a residential solar system and when they will not. In those cases where it's required, we have a structural (civil) engineer review our plans, provide calculations, and stamp the relevant pages. (Again, we are legally qualified to do the design work, otherwise.) If the engineer's calculations do not show the design is safe or if they have any other concerns, they will refuse to stamp. It doesn't matter who does the drawing representing the proposed installation: it is the content that is stamped that matters. If a contractor such as myself were to provide false information to the engineer for review, the liability for that would of course be entirely on us.

Our designs involve both structural and electrical details. We don't need an electrical engineer to stamp plans where the AHJ only requires structural engineering. Or vice versa.

To my knowledge this is in no way a violation of California law. In my opinion any state laws that prohibit such practice are draconian. You're free to have a different opinion.