PE Stamps Required

Status
Not open for further replies.
W

Wireit

Member
I am interested in getting a better understanding of when a PE stamp is required on a set of drawings.

Is this requirement enforced by the local authority, the state or some sort of a national electrical enforcement?

It's my understanding that a dwelling unit (single family) does not need a PE stamp for a permit. Do some special occupancies require a stamp while others don't (schools vs. health care)?

Is the requirement triggered by the size of the project or the type of project?

How can I get information on these requirements.

Thanks
 
Not sure where you live but in Indiana you can download a copy of the General Administrative Rules or GAR and it describes in detail when you need a "design professional", i.e. PE or registered architect.

Look at sections 12-6-3 Design Release Requirement through 12-6-9 Design professionals

http://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/T06750/A00120.PDF

Summary, most projects involving the public or employees have to be submitted for design release but not necessarily stamped. There are numerous exceptions to this.

Your job has to be "stamped" if it is greater than 30,000 cubic feet (yes, cubic not square) or involves fire protection or structural changes.

bbaumer
 
Wireit said:
Is this requirement enforced by the local authority, the state or some sort of a national electrical enforcement?
Click to expand...
PE licenses are issued only by the States, not by local or national agencies. However, the requirements that a project be designed under the supervision of a PE and that the PE sign and seal the design documents can be established at any level of government. Private entities (e.g., the owner of a proposed new apartment or office building) may include such requirements, even if the various governmental agencies would not require them.
Wireit said:
It's my understanding that a dwelling unit (single family) does not need a PE stamp for a permit. Do some special occupancies require a stamp while others don't (schools vs. health care)?
Click to expand...
I suspect that most single family dwelling units can be designed and built without the participation of an engineer (or an architect, for that matter). I believe that my state requires a PE seal, at the Plan Review stage, on designs for schools and hospitals. But this really is a local thing; all areas have their own rules.
Wireit said:
Is the requirement triggered by the size of the project or the type of project?
Click to expand...
Type, certainly. Size, maybe. Again, it is a local thing.
Wireit said:
How can I get information on these requirements.
Click to expand...
What Cavie said.
 
Just thought I should add that PE is happy to design and seal (or sometimes review and seal) a set of drawings whether or not somebody was requiring that seal or not. This can be handy for a contractor to help transfer some liability.
 
mdshunk said:
Just thought I should add that PE is happy to design and seal . . . a set of drawings whether or not somebody was requiring that seal or not.
Click to expand...
Quite true. We?d be even happier to accept cash or verified checks in payment for the services. ;)
mdshunk said:
. . . (or sometimes review and seal) . . . .
Click to expand...
No. Not at all. Never. Perish the thought. :mad: (I do hope you were kidding.)

That would be a clear violation of professional ethics, and often a violation of state law. Such actions could easily cost an engineer the PE license. When an engineer seals a document, it constitutes a certification that the work was performed by, or under the supervision of, that engineer. Reviewing work done by others and sealing the documents prepared by others is not an option. The closest we can come is to review the work done by others, write a report that describes the results of our review, and seal the report. The distinction is that the report was generated through the PE's own work, or though the work of others who were under the PE's supervision.
 
charlie b said:
No. Not at all. Never. Perish the thought. :mad: (I do hope you were kidding.)

That would be a clear violation of professional ethics, and often a violation of state law. Such actions could easily cost an engineer the PE license. When an engineer seals a document, it constitutes a certification that the work was performed by, or under the supervision of, that engineer. Reviewing work done by others and sealing the documents prepared by others is not an option. The closest we can come is to review the work done by others, write a report that describes the results of our review, and seal the report. The distinction is that the report was generated through the PE's own work, or though the work of others who were under the PE's supervision.
Click to expand...
I thought that might get a rise out of someone, but I didn't expect anyone to act like this doesn't happen. :cool:

One recent example... the engineering was done by an out of state firm, and did bear the seal for that out of state PE. This didn't fly in my state, so a local PE reviewed the work with a couple minor changes and applied his mark.

I don't see this as being any different that cutting and pasting pre-made details from AUTOCAD or whatever into your own drawings.
 
Last edited:
charlie b said:

Quite true. We?d be even happier to accept cash or verified checks in payment for the services. ;)

No. Not at all. Never. Perish the thought. :mad: (I do hope you were kidding.)

That would be a clear violation of professional ethics, and often a violation of state law. Such actions could easily cost an engineer the PE license. When an engineer seals a document, it constitutes a certification that the work was performed by, or under the supervision of, that engineer. Reviewing work done by others and sealing the documents prepared by others is not an option. The closest we can come is to review the work done by others, write a report that describes the results of our review, and seal the report. The distinction is that the report was generated through the PE's own work, or though the work of others who were under the PE's supervision.
Click to expand...


I recieved a letter from the State of Indiana about 4 years ago or so, as did all "design professionals" (PE's and RA's) clearly, very clearly, stating it is against the law to "sell your stamp", i.e. review another's design and stamp it. The letter even came with details from a court case on this very issue. I believe the Engineer caught doing this lost his license and was fined.

charlie b is 100% correct.
 
Last edited:
mdshunk said:
I thought that might get a rise out of someone, but I didn't expect anyone to act like this doesn't happen.
Click to expand...
mdshunk said:
Click to expand...

I have no illusions about this. It does happen. It should not. When it does, it should be reported. Otherwise, the health and safety of the public is put unnecessarily at risk.
mdshunk said:
One recent example... the engineering was done by an out of state firm, and did bear the seal for that out of state PE. This didn't fly in my state, so a local PE reviewed the work with a couple minor changes and applied his mark.
Click to expand...
If he applied his seal to the drawings, as opposed to applying his seal to a report that describes the results of his review, then he violated the law.

Here is the real issue: If (Heaven forbid) something goes wrong, and someone gets hurt, who gets sued? The out-of state engineer can say, ?Hey, you guys did not accept my design drawings, and the other guy changed them anyway.? The in-state engineer can say, ?Hey, it is all their design work; all I did was fix a minor typo (or whatever).? If nobody knows up front that they are the ones who will have to answer for the final product, then nobody protects their own interests by protecting the interests of the public.
mdshunk said:
I don't see this as being any different that cutting and pasting pre-made details from AUTOCAD or whatever into your own drawings.
Click to expand...
Nah, that is merely plagiarism. :rolleyes:

If I were to take ?building blocks,? and put them together to form a ?building,? then the ?putting together? part is the ?work performed by me, or under my supervision.? That is a legitimate design activity. The role my brain would play is knowing what blocks to use and how to connect them, in order to get the final product I am seeking. I don?t need to design each individual detail, as though nobody had ever created such details before.
 
I agree with Charlie in principle, and I know that the laws specifically prohibit engineers stamping anything that isn't their design.

However, I also think there is a grey area between reviewing and redesigning. An area where it may not be completely clear if the engineer has simply reviewed someone elses design, or if they have created their own design.

Say Joe brings in a very simple design that requires a PE stamp. A PE reviews it, and sees a few minor changes. He redlines those on the drawing, and passes the drawing to a CAD person. The CAD person puts the drawing onto the firms titleblock, and makes the redline corrections. The PE then stamps the drawing. Is that a design or review?

Steve
 
steve66 said:
I agree with Charlie in principle, and I know that the laws specifically prohibit engineers stamping anything that isn't their design.

However, I also think there is a grey area between reviewing and redesigning. An area where it may not be completely clear if the engineer has simply reviewed someone elses design, or if they have created their own design.

Say Joe brings in a very simple design that requires a PE stamp. A PE reviews it, and sees a few minor changes. He redlines those on the drawing, and passes the drawing to a CAD person. The CAD person puts the drawing onto the firms titleblock, and makes the redline corrections. The PE then stamps the drawing. Is that a design or review?

Steve
Click to expand...

I'll try to dig up the letter and court case I mention above. I know I saved it, the question is where did I put it?
 
Okay, figure me this...

If I, as an electrician, bring my design problem to an engineer, he'll design a solution and seal a print.

If I bring him a design problem, along with a few orally proposed solutions, he'll take that under advisement, design a solution, and seal a print.

If I bring him a design problem that I've got a good solution to, and I wrote it on a cocktail napkin, he'll possibly just red line that a little bit, have it drawn up, and seal it.

If I bring him a design problem that I have got a good design for, and I also happen to have my ideas documented in a .DXF file on a CD that I can hand him. If he looks at that file and substantially agrees with me, makes a couple changes and seals a print, why should he be penalized because his customer was pretty smart?
 
I should have copied number 5 also but it says the same thing as 7 only in plain english.

I don't have a good answer as to when the design becomes the Engineer's and not the customer's, Marc. That would be up to the licensing board I guess after a complaint had been filed. The key would be in the charge number 6., in Indiana anyway, which states "some engineering work". What is "some"?

Better for the Engineer to just be safe I guess and tell the customer you would have to design it from scratch and charge full price, not just sell your stamp for a discount.
 
Last edited:
Delaware

Delaware

Delaware requires that the engineer be "in responsible charge of the design".

That leaves room for flexibility. As long as I can take ownership of a design - and impact that design as necessary - I can sign & seal it.

I'm a member of the DE Law Enforcement and Ethics Committee and I can say that it usually takes blatant disregard for review and ownership of a design to constitute a violation. And that's usually isolated to a case where an engineer seals a design that's out of his area of expertise - like a Mechanical Engineer sealing an electrical design.

JM
 
This is from the Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies

Engineers and Land Surveyors Bylaws and Rules
4 CCR 730-1
(e) A professional engineer who adopts, signs, and seals work previously engineered shall perform sufficient review and calculation to ensure that all standards of practice required of licensees are met, including satisfying the relevant criteria stated in paragraphs (b) and (c) above, and shall take professional and legal responsibility for documents signed and sealed under his/her responsible charge.

In Colorado, we can stamp & sign other's work - but "... TAKE PROFESSIONAL AND LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY ..... ".
I would assume that there are a few individuals that would 'sell their stamp' without any rigorous review, but the vast majority are compliant with the statute - that last sentance above is one big club.
db
 
barclayd said:
This is from the Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies

Engineers and Land Surveyors Bylaws and Rules
4 CCR 730-1
(e) A professional engineer who adopts, signs, and seals work previously engineered shall perform sufficient review and calculation to ensure that all standards of practice required of licensees are met, including satisfying the relevant criteria stated in paragraphs (b) and (c) above, and shall take professional and legal responsibility for documents signed and sealed under his/her responsible charge.

In Colorado, we can stamp & sign other's work - but "... TAKE PROFESSIONAL AND LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY ..... ".
I would assume that there are a few individuals that would 'sell their stamp' without any rigorous review, but the vast majority are compliant with the statute - that last sentance above is one big club.
db
Click to expand...
This is the exception rather than the rule. Most states allow sealing only for work performed by the PE or under his direct supervision. If the only work done was a revision of previously engineered work, the extent of the work that was performed by the PE needs to be spelled out on the document so that the user of the drawing knows who is responsible for what part of the document.
 
I can?t provide a clear line of demarcation on this question. I believe the intent is that the PE who is to seal the documents must have had sufficient participation in the design process as to have been able to influence the important decisions on the basis of which the design was created. If a PE is unaware that a project is underway until being handed a completed (or nearly completed) design document ?to review,? that is way too late. There will be an inappropriate degree of pressure to accept the completed design, even if the PE would have done things differently, simply to avoid having to spend more time and money to start things over again. That kind of pressure tends to place ?time and money? at a higher level of importance than safeguarding the public?s interests. The primary duty of a PE is to safeguard the public, and nothing should be allowed to get in the way of fulfilling that duty.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top