I just recieved my first RED sticker in 12 years. My job has 12 each 8' pendant fixtures suspended from drop and drywall ceilings. I was failed for penetrating the ceiling with the SJT cord that was hardwired to the light. Unlike the older lights where you mounted a box in the ceiling and the bracket inside the box, the newer lights have a support system where you must mount the box above the grid. I followed the instructions exactly. There is a triangle bracket that has the cable adjusters and it must be mounted to the backside of the box. this forces you to pass the cable through the ceiling. Showed inspector the instruction and he wants me to get him something from the manufacturer that allows this???? HELP PLEASE.
pendant lighting
- Thread starter j.orlett
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: pendant lighting
Sounds like the inspector is right. You violated 400.8(2).
Sounds like the inspector is right. You violated 400.8(2).
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: pendant lighting
I would look to see if these fixtures are UL listed. If they are I would contact UL and advise them of the installation instructions that cause you to violate 410.8(2) You will get a response fast as what to do.
Go to www.ul.com to get the 800 number and call them.
I would look to see if these fixtures are UL listed. If they are I would contact UL and advise them of the installation instructions that cause you to violate 410.8(2) You will get a response fast as what to do.
Go to www.ul.com to get the 800 number and call them.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: pendant lighting
I would agree with Wayne. You'll need to work this out with the manufacturer or the listing agency to satisfy the inspector.
I would agree with Wayne. You'll need to work this out with the manufacturer or the listing agency to satisfy the inspector.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: pendant lighting
j.orlett,
Could you possibly post the fixture type and it's manufacturer? I'm curious to see how the thing is set up.
Trevor
j.orlett,
Could you possibly post the fixture type and it's manufacturer? I'm curious to see how the thing is set up.
Trevor
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: pendant lighting
What about 400.7?
What about 400.7?
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: pendant lighting
400.7 permits the use of cords for pendant type fixtures, but not for the cord itself to travel through the drop ceiling tile.
I also agree with Wayne about the UL situation.
In general when wiring with cords, remember cords are to be visible their entire length.
400.7 permits the use of cords for pendant type fixtures, but not for the cord itself to travel through the drop ceiling tile.
I also agree with Wayne about the UL situation.
In general when wiring with cords, remember cords are to be visible their entire length.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: pendant lighting
I know this is a little off topic, but when we use type W cable at marinas, and need to get from the bulkhead to the panel, what are your thoughts on installing it in conduit?
I know this is a little off topic, but when we use type W cable at marinas, and need to get from the bulkhead to the panel, what are your thoughts on installing it in conduit?
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: pendant lighting
Did you take a look at 400.8(6)?
If you can run a raceway, why not install the proper conductors in the raceway?
[ November 22, 2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Did you take a look at 400.8(6)?
If you can run a raceway, why not install the proper conductors in the raceway?
[ November 22, 2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: pendant lighting
<edited for poor english>
[ November 23, 2005, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: hardworkingstiff ]
We run the W cable per 555 and try to take it to the panel with no splices. Keeps corrosion possibilities to a minimum. Some jobs have 10 to 20 4 conductor cables coming up off of the ramp, and to set that many junction boxes would be about impossible.
<edited for poor english>
[ November 23, 2005, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: hardworkingstiff ]
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: pendant lighting
400.8
"Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:"
That sentence could be written a little more clear IMO. One interpretation could be if 400.7 allows the use then 400.8 does not apply.
As far as 400.8(6), "...except as otherwise permitted in this Code". Now if it is an approved wiring method for docks, and needs physical protection, then it is ok to install it in conduit, so what's wrong with installing it in PVC to the panel? I don't get it. I try to understand the logic behind the reason for the code.
400.8
"Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:"
That sentence could be written a little more clear IMO. One interpretation could be if 400.7 allows the use then 400.8 does not apply.
As far as 400.8(6), "...except as otherwise permitted in this Code". Now if it is an approved wiring method for docks, and needs physical protection, then it is ok to install it in conduit, so what's wrong with installing it in PVC to the panel? I don't get it. I try to understand the logic behind the reason for the code.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: pendant lighting
Read a little further in Art 555, specifically
section 555.13(4)(a)(4)
cables shall not be installed where subject to physical damage.
Read a little further in Art 555, specifically
section 555.13(4)(a)(4)
cables shall not be installed where subject to physical damage.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: pendant lighting
Sleeve of nonmetallic material sure sounds like RNC.
Together it sounds a lot like RNC being used for protection from damage.
[ November 23, 2005, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Chafing sure sounds like physical damage.
Sleeve of nonmetallic material sure sounds like RNC.
Together it sounds a lot like RNC being used for protection from damage.
[ November 23, 2005, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: pendant lighting
Bob,
The point I take from your posts is that we all can pick and choose from the code to make our point. The difficult part is to understand the overall idea/concept of what the code is trying to accomplish.
The code develops over time, and sometimes wording gets changed that will modify the original intent of the code. That IMO is what happened in 555.13(B)(4)(b). I spoke with the people at the NFPA and they are kind enough to search for the email they sent me that showed how this happened.
I'm curious as to why:
Why is type W not allowed in conduit where it is an approved wiring method for permanent wiring of a structure (dock).
Why is type W cable not approved for burial when it is approved for immersion. What is in the soil? Is it a heat dissipation issue? If it is a heat dissipation issue, can the use of a different ampacity table compensate for that issue?
Why are we here? (just joking, lol).
Bob,
The point I take from your posts is that we all can pick and choose from the code to make our point. The difficult part is to understand the overall idea/concept of what the code is trying to accomplish.
The code develops over time, and sometimes wording gets changed that will modify the original intent of the code. That IMO is what happened in 555.13(B)(4)(b). I spoke with the people at the NFPA and they are kind enough to search for the email they sent me that showed how this happened.
I'm curious as to why:
Why is type W not allowed in conduit where it is an approved wiring method for permanent wiring of a structure (dock).
Why is type W cable not approved for burial when it is approved for immersion. What is in the soil? Is it a heat dissipation issue? If it is a heat dissipation issue, can the use of a different ampacity table compensate for that issue?
Why are we here? (just joking, lol).
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: pendant lighting
Bob
The way I am reading both (4)&(5) is that these cables are not permitted to be subject to physical damage, hence locating them under the pier. At some point the cable is going to go through a structural member to get to the source/location. At that point the cable is permitted to go through the sleeve, and that point only.
I have only been involved with using this cable one time, and we kept it underneath the piers, only coming up to enter the pedestals and to go into the panel.
Thinking back, when we came up through the dock, we cut an extra sized hole, we did not protect it from "chafing" with a sleeve
[ November 23, 2005, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Bob
The way I am reading both (4)&(5) is that these cables are not permitted to be subject to physical damage, hence locating them under the pier. At some point the cable is going to go through a structural member to get to the source/location. At that point the cable is permitted to go through the sleeve, and that point only.
I have only been involved with using this cable one time, and we kept it underneath the piers, only coming up to enter the pedestals and to go into the panel.
Thinking back, when we came up through the dock, we cut an extra sized hole, we did not protect it from "chafing" with a sleeve
[ November 23, 2005, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: pendant lighting
pierre,
Thanks for responding to these questions. We do keep it in the floater or under the fixed pier and under the ramp between fixed pier/bulkhead and floater. We come up in the power center which is mounted to the decking, so no exposed cable. The cable is exposed under the ramp, but not a whole lot we can do about that.
The tricky part is how do you get from the top of the ramp to the panel? If the panel is 15' away, and you can't install the W in conduit, then you have to put a JB at the bulkhead? I can see it now, a JB with terminal strips and 10 1/0 cables coming from the floater and 10 conduits with 3/0 THHN coming from the panel 15' away. Yea, that makes a lot of sense. This JB will have to be quite large. It just seems to me we need to get to the reasons "why" the code says what it says. I hate being a dumb sheep that just says "cause it says so".
When I worked as a construction manager at a pump and tank company (gas stations) I would ask all kinds of questions as to why we did things this way or that way. I questioned everything. The executive Vice-President came to me after one meeting and asked me if I stayed up at night dreaming up these questions. I've always been this way, can't help it, it's in my blood.
pierre,
Thanks for responding to these questions. We do keep it in the floater or under the fixed pier and under the ramp between fixed pier/bulkhead and floater. We come up in the power center which is mounted to the decking, so no exposed cable. The cable is exposed under the ramp, but not a whole lot we can do about that.
The tricky part is how do you get from the top of the ramp to the panel? If the panel is 15' away, and you can't install the W in conduit, then you have to put a JB at the bulkhead? I can see it now, a JB with terminal strips and 10 1/0 cables coming from the floater and 10 conduits with 3/0 THHN coming from the panel 15' away. Yea, that makes a lot of sense. This JB will have to be quite large. It just seems to me we need to get to the reasons "why" the code says what it says. I hate being a dumb sheep that just says "cause it says so".
When I worked as a construction manager at a pump and tank company (gas stations) I would ask all kinds of questions as to why we did things this way or that way. I questioned everything. The executive Vice-President came to me after one meeting and asked me if I stayed up at night dreaming up these questions. I've always been this way, can't help it, it's in my blood.
Re: pendant lighting
are these them?
http://www.linearltg.com/C293.html
http://www.linearltg.com/pub/PDF/Cutsheets/C293/D0070322.PDF
are these them?
http://www.linearltg.com/C293.html
http://www.linearltg.com/pub/PDF/Cutsheets/C293/D0070322.PDF
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