People should pull permits-Help!

[c2500]

Aside from the fact permits are a basic legal requirement, there is another issue to consider. Mortgages. I added on a den and master suite to my last home. I had to provide the mortgage company the permits to prove the addition was legal. I had all the information, so it was no problem. I am not aware of many that ask for it, but some companies do want the information.

c2500

 

[satcom]

Its the libertarian in me but I think the homeowner should be responsible for doing a little homework on the people they hire.Most just pick up the phone and call till they get the one that will do it the cheapest. Permits , inspections and even licenses are all products of the Government and we all know how well they do things.If I don't want a hack working on my house then it should be up to me to do a little research.

Yes, the homeowner should also be informed.

Just a note, the codes are products of the insurance underwriters, and inforced by laws for public safety.

 

[satcom]

Aside from the fact permits are a basic legal requirement, there is another issue to consider. Mortgages. I added on a den and master suite to my last home. I had to provide the mortgage company the permits to prove the addition was legal. I had all the information, so it was no problem. I am not aware of many that ask for it, but some companies do want the information.

c2500

Not all the insurance companies have it in their contracts, but if you have one that does, require it, then without permits or inspections you are at risk.
I guess you can tell, this is an issue of concern with me, I have see the ugly side, where a homeowner lost the largest investment of his life.

 

[Rewire]

Yes, the homeowner should also be informed.

Just a note, the codes are products of the insurance underwriters, and inforced by laws for public safety.

ever since the Chicago fire , the insurance companies protecting their interests while using the police powers of the state.

 

[satcom]

ever since the Chicago fire , the insurance companies protecting their interests while using the police powers of the state.

Chicago always had some of the toughest codes, I am just guessing but Boston and New York are also up there.

 

[BryanMD]

Its the libertarian in me but I think the homeowner should be responsible... If I don't want a hack working on my house then it should be up to me to do a little research.

agree 100% but this gets into that chicken or the egg thing; especially in the more built up areas vs back in the country.

The focus on licensing of the people in the yellow pages too often gives the homeowner a false sense of security that they *have* done their homework.

It's not an either or... or even 50/50 but in the larger scheme of things...
the licensing pulls up the rear behind inspections as being of greater value.

 

[electricguy]

agree 100% but this gets into that chicken or the egg thing; especially in the more built up areas vs back in the country.

The focus on licensing of the people in the yellow pages too often gives the homeowner a false sense of security that they *have* done their homework.

It's not an either or... or even 50/50 but in the larger scheme of things...
the licensing pulls up the rear behind inspections as being of greater value.

We have to post our EC # in all yellow pages advertising YP wont publish the Ad without it here.

 

[topper]

Maybe it would be helpful to think about why people do not pull permits. Around here the only reason not to pull an electrical permit is if it is such a small job that it is not worth the time. The electrical department is easy to work with and really give us no reason not to pull a permit (for the record I am talking commercial/industrial, no residential). However there are times that the electrical permit would cause problems for other trades or the general contractor. For example, I can pull a permit without a drawing to add an outlet, however if a General Contractor wants to build a small wall or move a couple of wall, he is required to pull a building permit. His permit will require architectural drawings, now my outlet will require stamped electrical drawings. The general may have to make modifications to the space because of ADA (outside of the work he is performing). Now a job that the customer wants to start in a week will require plans, plan review, engineering, possible added expense because of ADA compliance and will take 3-4 weeks to obtain a permit. The customer may decide not to do the project because of the time and/or added expense.

I am not making a judgment as to right and wrong, just the realities of of the system we have and the decisions people make because of it.

 

[satcom]

Maybe it would be helpful to think about why people do not pull permits. Around here the only reason not to pull an electrical permit is if it is such a small job that it is not worth the time. The electrical department is easy to work with and really give us no reason not to pull a permit (for the record I am talking commercial/industrial, no residential). However there are times that the electrical permit would cause problems for other trades or the general contractor. For example, I can pull a permit without a drawing to add an outlet, however if a General Contractor wants to build a small wall or move a couple of wall, he is required to pull a building permit. His permit will require architectural drawings, now my outlet will require stamped electrical drawings. The general may have to make modifications to the space because of ADA (outside of the work he is performing). Now a job that the customer wants to start in a week will require plans, plan review, engineering, possible added expense because of ADA compliance and will take 3-4 weeks to obtain a permit. The customer may decide not to do the project because of the time and/or added expense.

I am not making a judgment as to right and wrong, just the realities of of the system we have and the decisions people make because of it.

I understand a small job is just not worth the time, and because it's small it may only kill a small family, that makes perfect sense to me.

And heck why not take on the liability because the other contractors did not get permits, that makes sense too.

 

[Volta]

Generally those of us that get permits/inspections tend do do more compliant and complete work. We are more likely to make one more trip to the truck to get the last strap that is required.

Those that rarely get inspections may be just a bit less likely to complete details. They don't fail- 'cause they don't pay for the inspection. They tend not to learn about the subtleties of this trade.

Electrical work may not be rocket science, but there are a million details to it.

IMO it is far more important to use a worker that always gets work inspected and performs work that way- than whether or not one particular job was inspected carefully.

That person's unseen work is likely to be ok too.

 

[jes25]

Thanks a ton for the ideas and discussion. The biggest problem is having references, I have to cite articles, trade journals, expert opinion on the issue. The article from Pierre is perfect. Has Mike Holt authored anything on the subject?

 

[satcom]

Thanks a ton for the ideas and discussion. The biggest problem is having references, I have to cite articles, trade journals, expert opinion on the issue. The article from Pierre is perfect. Has Mike Holt authored anything on the subject?

There are plenty of articles out there, and just talk to an insurance underwriter with plenty of experience, they will tell you all the disaster stories from jobs done without premits or inspection, you can't get a better expert then an underwriter.

Here is a good link http://www.realtor.com/home-garden/remodel/finance-insurance-permits/building-permits.aspx

 

[satcom]

another reference link http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4623783_building-permit-work.html

 

[Dnkldorf]

I am not sure requiring permits is the answer.

What would happen if only licensed people were permitted to do work?

ie. meaning ALL employees working on any electrical system had to pass the same code test as the employer.

 

[LarryFine]

I am not sure requiring permits is the answer.

What would happen if only licensed people were permitted to do work?

ie. meaning ALL employees working on any electrical system had to pass the same code test as the employer.

Uh, more work would pass inspection on the first request?

 

[Dnkldorf]

Uh, more work would pass inspection on the first request?

Yeah and safer installations probably.

But you probably won't hear EC's jumping all over this.

 

[growler]

What would happen if only licensed people were permitted to do work?

It would depend a lot on how the state granted those licenses. If all they do is "Grand-father" in everyone that's ever twisted a wire nut then it wouldn't help much.

Many states missed the boat when they didn't start apprenticeship programs years ago. So if they require a license they may not have enough people that can pass the test, so they either Grand-father in everyone or make the test so easy a monkey could pass it but they would get the number of electricians they think they need.

It's not really that simple, our transition peroid is still going on since they required contractors to be licensed. Many were Grand-fathered in almost 30 years ago and are still holding a license.

Someone would have to come up with a way to transition from the way things are now to requiring a license that would actually have some meaning. It would get a little messy.

You really can't get away from permits because there has to be a system for keeping records of the building going on in a jurisdiction. A lot of the permit process is for record keeping purposes.

 

[Dnkldorf]

A lot of the permit process is for record keeping purposes.

And for added tax revenue.

 

[satcom]

And for added tax revenue.

In most states the money collected for permits is used to cover the cost of operating the permit and inspection services.

In my state it is illegal to use it for revenue.

 

[macmikeman]

The salary of the electrical inspector is partly funded by building permit fees around here. That is a perfect example of proper use of tax funds. It is not redirected to uses outside the building dept. overhead. Seems like a win win to me.