Permanently microwave on 1991

[Esthy]

Does the code in 1991 required dedicated circuit for a permanently microwave mounted? I am in the middle between the buyer and seller, in my opinion it should be, also, the house was partially renovated few months ago.

 

[Esthy]

Microwave 1991

Microwave 1991

Here is the photo client sent, buyer says that it is on the same circuit of the SA, but seller says it is according to 1991. Jees, what a torment for few pennies ... I will check tomorrow, but I don't want spending time on this.

 

[gadfly56]

Here is the photo client sent, buyer says that it is on the same circuit of the SA, but seller says it is according to 1991. Jees, what a torment for few pennies ... I will check tomorrow, but I don't want spending time on this.

Well, since it's either 1990 or 1993 looks like someone is out of luck . There is nothing in the 1993 version on line requiring a dedicated circuit for a microwave. As far as I can tell, it doesn't even mention small appliance branch circuits so the buyer looks to be SOL as far as beating down the seller.

 

[Esthy]

Sorry, what is SOL as beating the seller? English is my second language and sometimes and don't get idiomatic expressions.

Realtor sent a message stating that the microwave is in the kitchen light circuit. I really hate those cheapers that hire handymen to remodels and later cry when found those errors.

I have a quotation in my business cards that read: "if you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur"

So, now after everything is closed it will cost money to run the circuit as the buyer wants it directly from the panel.

I tried to saved money for the seller and this is why I tried to go for the old code, but if it is in the light circuit ... Forget it

 

[JFletcher]

You would have to know what code cycle your state was on in 1991. If the house was completed in 1991, permits could have been pulled in 1990, and the code then was ???

SOL stands for "shoot, out of luck".. well, close enough to explain on public boards.

 

[tw1156]

Microwave on Garage Door Circuit

Microwave on Garage Door Circuit

I found out the hard way that my microwave circuit was tied to my garage door motor circuit.... over two years after buying the house.:weeping: :happysad:

 

[gadfly56]

Sorry, what is SOL as beating the seller? English is my second language and sometimes and don't get idiomatic expressions.

Realtor sent a message stating that the microwave is in the kitchen light circuit. I really hate those cheapers that hire handymen to remodels and later cry when found those errors.

I have a quotation in my business cards that read: "if you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur"

So, now after everything is closed it will cost money to run the circuit as the buyer wants it directly from the panel.

I tried to saved money for the seller and this is why I tried to go for the old code, but if it is in the light circuit ... Forget it

If the jurisdiction was on the 1990 code or earlier there is no requirement that I could find to put the microwave on a separate circuit. That kitchen looks very new; if it was part of the remodel then the wiring in the remodel would have to be done to the current code. In that case, the 2014 edition would require that utilization equipment fastened in place not exceed 50% of the branch circuit ampere rating. So roughly, if the lighting circuit is 15 amp, you can put in a 900 watt hardwired microwave, or if it were a 20 amp circuit, you could put in a 1,200 watt unit. Those would be the limitations under 2014. For what it's worth, in my last house we did a remodel and I requested a separate circuit for the microwave, but I didn't have to by code.

 

[Esthy]

Went today to this nightmare, the house was recently remodeled, the handyman tap the overhead can light and ran the conductor to a new "GFCI" receptacle inside the cabinet. When the microwave start the lights dimmed considerable. The wall where the kitchen is located is a common wall with the next door as this is a townhouse and the kitchen is far away from the service panel and surrounded by concrete walls. The house is a 1991 house, "was not wired for microwave"

Went to the service panel, see photo, all 120/20 amps circuits are multi-wiring with the exception of a single circuit that is on breaker 12, BUT note in he panel that the 120/14 amps multi-wiring are in the same phase, on 10 & 14 breakers. So I only need to put the single circuit on, say on breaker 14 and transfer the red 14 conductor to breaker 12.

The single circuit is the one that goes to the microwave/lights, now, I don't know if this multiwiring has been working in this way (same phase) since 1991, not one can tell. In your experience, as I am old, tired of those cheapers and the older I get the more confused I get, is that possible that this circuits is working in this way for many years? Also, I try to find the way to run the circuit for this microwave in the existing kitchen wiring, but buyer wants a dedicated and the specification in the manual call for a dedicate one as well. Is there any exception to the rule of follow manufacturer specification. I just enter in my 74 year of age and I expect to work another 30 years ... LOL. Any suggestions to avoid going to the service panel with a new circuit?
Oh, my apologies, old people talk too much ...

 

[goldstar]

I don't mean to throw a wrench into this thread but it looks like the micro unit is not high enough over the range to meet any code. IMHO, the unit has to be flush with the underside of the cabinet it is installed in so that you can fit a deep pot on the range. Take a close look at the mfr's instructions.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you are saying that the microwave is on the small appliance branch circuit then that is a violation. The manufacturers instructions might have required it. Also depending on the wattage it may also have required a separate circuit.

 

[Esthy]

The micro is in the lights circuit, a tap from the cans' light to a GFCI receptacle inside the cabinet and of course the micro acts as a "dimmer switch" for the lights when it start. It is a 1550 watts microwave.

So, I have to disconnect this tap, I cannot tap the SA circuits and the situation is "very expensive" because in the way it was remodeled to bring a new dedicated circuit.

Maybe, (doing a load calculation) tap the kitchen light to the other (s) light circuits and leaving that circuit alone for the micro ...

Another option is to tap the dishwasher, disposal or another circuit available, not the SA, but with a 1550 one?

Regarding the multi in the same phase, can it worked for 26 years in this way? Or when "remodeled" they messed with the circuit and because the house is vacant since the remodel nothing happen yet?

The seller is an investor and will not put any money into, the expenses have to come from the realtor pocket and I feel bad.

 

[kwired]

In post 2 you mentioned it was on a SA branch circuit, this outlet has never been allowed (at least since 1987 NEC - which is first code I began using, but I think goes back much further then that) on a SABC.

If it is on the same circuit as the lighting, 210-23 back then was worded differently but has nearly identical requirements as it has today.
In this case that multiple outlet branch circuit can have a single utilization equipment fastened in place that doesn't exceed 50% of the branch circuit rating, so the appliance can be 900 VA max if a 15 amp branch circuit, or 1200VA max on a 20 amp branch circuit. Do expect some dimming of lights on the same circuit when the magnetron is energized.

If it was recently remodeled then a more recent code should apply, though the requirements in question here really haven't changed much in 30 years, mostly just rewording but the main install requirements are basically the same.

 

[Esthy]

No, no me, the buyer said that, he didn't know what he was talking about. The remodeler tapped the existing lights circuit (a 12 gage on a 15 amps breaker) for that 1550 microwave. What is I tap the disposal or dishwasher circuit for this micro? of course depending if the load calculation allows it, it will be legal. Will be?

 

[Esthy]

Please , I would like your opinions about this multiwiring in same phase for 26 years, can it be possible that nothing happened on those 26 years?

 

[user 100]

Please , I would like your opinions about this multiwiring in same phase for 26 years, can it be possible that nothing happened on those 26 years?

I have not read all of the posts, but what has this "same phase" mwbc been feeding other than the mw?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Look at 21.23(A)(2). Sounds like a violation to me on a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit

(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branchcircuit
ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plugconnected
utilization equipment not fastened in place, or
both, are also supplied

 

[Esthy]

Hi user 100, I mean below

Failure to properly terminate the ungrounded (hot) conductors of a multiwire branch circuit to separate phases could cause the grounded (neutral) conductor to become overloaded with excessive neutral current. Conductor overheating decreases insulating material service life, creating the potential for arc-fault fires in hidden locations.

 

[user 100]

Hi user 100, I mean below

Failure to properly terminate the ungrounded (hot) conductors of a multiwire branch circuit to separate phases could cause the grounded (neutral) conductor to become overloaded with excessive neutral current. Conductor overheating decreases insulating material service life, creating the potential for arc-fault fires in hidden locations.

My point was that if it was only supplying lights and the mw, even for years, the #12 noodle shouldn't have cooked (the combined current would never have exceeded 20a/ 12 will handle even several more amps than 20a continuoisly without any danger) - simply check for any signs of overhaeting. Really this does sound like a violation of 210.23(A)(2) as suggested by Dennis Alwon above- you need to see what the mw is pulling vs. the breaker size for that ckt. That will let you know for sure if you have a violation of that rule. But you could still have a technical *violation* of 110.3(B) if the manufacturer required the mw on IBC.

 

[user 100]

The micro is in the lights circuit, a tap from the cans' light to a GFCI receptacle inside the cabinet and of course the micro acts as a "dimmer switch" for the lights when it start. It is a 1550 watts microwave.

So, I have to disconnect this tap, I cannot tap the SA circuits and the situation is "very expensive" because in the way it was remodeled to bring a new dedicated circuit.


Maybe, (doing a load calculation) tap the kitchen light to the other (s) light circuits and leaving that circuit alone for the micro ...

That sounds like a good plan- just pick up another lighting ckt elsewhere for the kitchen lights



Another option is to tap the dishwasher, disposal or another circuit available, not the SA, but with a 1550 one?
You could also do that- Read 210.23 carefully- you can exceed the 50% rating of the ckt with 2 pieces of equipment fastened in place, provided none of the other items listed are on that ckt.


The seller is an investor and will not put any money into, the expenses have to come from the realtor pocket and I feel bad.
Either you want to get paid or not- no need to feel bad -you have to charge accordingly if you intend to bring it up to code, and somebody has to pick up the tab.

​

 

[JFletcher]

If the micro mfg requires an individual branch circuit, technically you are stuck by 110.3(B) to provide that. If they dont like your quote to do so, they are free to hire someone else. Forgive my bluntness, but you shouldnt feel bad for anyone involved paying for this; let them sort it out. If it would take an entire day to get a new 12/2 from the panel to the microwave, bust em for the near grand service call, and then let them deal with the drywall repair and repainting as well.

If the lights/microwave are on an improperly installed MWBC, simply switching #10 or 14 breaker's wire to #12 breaker, to use both legs, may solve the problem.