Permissable loads

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Re: Permissable loads

Jim your the one that said in another thread that the NEC should be Gospel, so where did that attitude go?

Forget 210.52(B), it doesn't apply or have any bearing here.

The applicable sections are as stated earlier, the first paragraph of 210.52 and 210.23(A)

Old habits die hard don't they.

Roger
 
Re: Permissable loads

Bear with me ,i am trying to exsplain a general purpose lighting recepticle being under that kitchen sink.Im not saying your wrong but this all sounds wrong .Or is direct wiring this disposal making this ok.Im reading that a general purpose branch recepticle can not be in the kitchen except if switched and is to meet 210.70 a 1 and that is for lighting not disposals.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Jim, are you saying that you are concidering the disposal to be a small appliance? and Not 'utilization equipment fastened in place'??
 
Re: Permissable loads

I will except it either way.My thinking ,(and sometimes it's wrong)is that if this disposal is plugged in below this sink that we have installed a receptacle on a general lighting circuit in the kitchen and that i back up as a violation
210.52 b 1 see exception #1 .Now if that disposal was in your living room at say the wet bar ,then i would be forced to except it.And if direct wired in the kitchen it for lack of a article to cite ,would pass.I will print all the replies and hand them to our local inspectors.Have no problem in being caught mis interpreting anything.I do believe NEC never intended to see a 1/2 horse motor on a lighting circuit.What would happen if that circuit had several recess cans on it? I have thought of a dedicated circuit for a disposal to be a waste for years.So if someone would ,please cite a code that allows a recepticle in a kitchen to be on a general lighting circuit(other than the exception for a switched receptacle for a light).I have cited one that has no reason to be in 210.52 b if general branch circuits can be in the kitchen.Would hope maybe Mike Holt would render a opinion as well as some others.
 
Re: Permissable loads

depending on the size of the units and the circut, it could be possible to put the disposal, dishwasher, and a sink light on the same circut and not be in violation.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Most dishwashers have water heaters built in and would use more than 50% of that 20 amp circuit.My dishwasher is a 1958 model and is slow sometimes,but she is paid for so keeping her.Wonder if she is grounded?
As to that light i am sure the circuit can handle it,the legal part is what i am questioning.Is possible i have waisted many breakers and wire for the last 20 years.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Hey Jim Don't dishwashers come in two flavors?
Corded and uncorded?
When they are the corded version how many have you seen that required to have a 20 -| receptacle?
and the corded version is the same one and has the same componits that the uncorded version has. the last one I looked at had a max load of 9.3 amps and this was with the heat cycle on now put that with a 3.0 amp disposal and a 100 watt bulb and you would have a total of 13.13 amps on a 15 amp circuit. so yes it would be over the 12 amps allowed but it would be way under the 16 amps allowed for a 20 amp circuit.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Learned to play it safe.What happens if the GC shows up with one that takes 10.5 amps ?
Almost got burned on 40 town houses i suggested to my boss that i could save a few hundred by putting the frig on 1 of the 2 20 amp small appliance circuits.The inspector let me know that he couldn't stop me put he disliked the idea.He mentioned that some new frigs come with papers that specify dedicated circuit.And in his notes made sure to check on final.The units were sold with appliances.Next unit he inspected had a dedicated circuit.I don't push and they don't push back.If in reason i will do it his way.Out of 40 units almost no red tags.
By the way we direct wire them and use lockout on breaker.No cords here.
My cordless 58 model makes coffee too

[ December 31, 2003, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Permissable loads

I too like to play safe I put more circuits in a kitchen than most usaly beetween 6 to 10 20 amp But the reason I do is this is the last place that I ever want a home owner to trip a breaker in a new house. the first thing out of there mouth is that this is why they went to the expence of buying a new home is not to have breakers triping. But I have never had the disposal circuit trip unless there was somthing wrong with the dishwasher or disposal. as the load is not even enough to trip a 15 amp circuit.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Will give it some thaught as it would save $$$
Did a remodel small kitchen 2 small appliance circuits .Didnt even take a day before they complained. on the one counter they had coffee pot ,toaster and micro and not a dam thing on the other circuit.Did solve by some slightly less than legal but still safe recircuiting
 
Re: Permissable loads

Jim have you been carfully looking at the code references provided?

I do not mean skimming over them and going by memory, things change over time.

Also the code is generally the bare minimum you can do, just because we are allowed to put a disposal on with lighting may not mean it is a good idea.

I for one would be iretated by the light over the sink flickering when I started my disposal.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I do believe NEC never intended to see a 1/2 horse motor on a lighting circuit.What would happen if that circuit had several recess cans on it?
Click to expand...
210.23(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.

(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.
Click to expand...
As long as you meet these requirements you may mix motor loads and lighting on the same circuit.


Originally posted by hurk27:
you would have a total of 13.13 amps on a 15 amp circuit. so yes it would be over the 12 amps allowed but it would be way under the 16 amps allowed for a 20 amp circuit.
Click to expand...
As long as the load is not considered continuous you may have 15 amps on a 15 amp circuit.
 
Re: Permissable loads

I was just ask this week by an inpsector if my dishwasher was on its own circuit. I did not argue the point since I always run them seperately.

Why "p" him off.

Mike P.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Bob i am fine with what 210.23 a1 a2 says
All i am saying is that if there is a recepticle on general purpose branch(not small appliance)210.52 b 1 exception 1 causes a conflict.
What did they make that exception for IF general lighting receptacles are ok in a kitchen.
Are you saying i can put a general purpose lighting receptacle in a kitchen ? for anything other than lighting that is switched?210.70 a 1
We can not just use 210.23 and ignore 210.52 They both must be met not just one.
The only way i can see this disposal on the lighting circuit is if it has NO receptacle (hard wired)if that is the case then i can't fault it.Don't like it but it seems to meet code.
Is there anyone who actually has wired them this way ?
 
Re: Permissable loads

Okay guys....
A general purpose circuit can be installed in a kitchen. So if someone wants to have the disposal (7.5A or less) connected to the 15A general purpose circuit that supplies the kitchen lights or receptacles (not in the kitchen or dinning area .....). This is fine.

All that needs to be complied is 210.23(A)(2) "Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied."

Personally, I think it's a neat idea to connect the disposal (used for what 1 hour a year) to the kitchen lighting circuit.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Thanks Mike .I am printing this as i see it as a tool to save a lot of $$$$$$.Might also add that dishwasher.Very few inspectors will reject Mikes interpretation.
This is something i have never in over 20 years seen being done.It sure would help for that can over the sink or coach light by the kitchen door.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Aren't you glad you appologized to Hal?

Roger
 
Re: Permissable loads

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Thanks Mike .I am printing this as i see it as a tool to save a lot of $$$$$$.Might also add that dishwasher.Very few inspectors will reject Mikes interpretation.
Click to expand...
"might also add that dishwasher"

Take a look at 430.53(A)(1)...at a recent meeting I attended, Creighton Schwan discussed this section with respect to the 'dishwasher-garbage disposal' issue on the same circuit....you won't find too many of these pieces of equipment operating at under 6A.
 
Re: Permissable loads

Nec 220-4 (a) would require this motor to br calculated at 125% of it's rating. Also section 210-23 (a) states that on a shared circuit such as this the utilization equipment "other than lighting" fastened in place cannot exceed 50% of the branch circuit. As previously stated :
Is this dangerous? Probably not.
Will the circuit be overloaded? Probably not.
Is this code compliant? Not in my opinion.

I would like to hear other comments on these code sections.
 
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