Permits Never pulled for Install Jobs, Even large Million Dollar Jobs

[SparkyBoy]

I have a question regarding pulling permits for jobs. The majority of the work is the installation of Security Cameras, and Security Camera recording systems. All Low voltage work.

The installing company hasn't pulled any permits for installation jobs in years.

My question is 2 parts.

1. what would happen if someone was to turn the company in for not pulling permits?

2. Would the qualifying Employee be responsible in anyway. The qualified employee hasn't been active in the business in years but is still on payroll doing other work outside of electrical work and had no idea that permits were not pulled. He works on the road traveling. He rarely comes home so he didn't know the jobs didn't have permits for years until recently.

The qualified employee was thinking of leaving the company and starting his own business using his license for himself and is worried that if the company gets caught for not pulling permits that it could have a negative effect on him personally and he may lose his license because the permits were not pulled. He feels he may be as guilty as the company for the permits not being pulled.

Can someone shed some light on what the repercussions could be on the qualified employee and the company?

 

[iwire]

Can someone shed some light on what the repercussions could be on the qualified employee and the company?

Not without knowing where this is happening, each area is different.

 

[renosteinke]

In the situation you describe, the company does NOT have a 'qualifying employee,' and is violating licensing laws by falsly representing that they do have such a person.

The fraud lies in that the company is required to have the work performed under the supervision of the qualifying employee. If he's not supervising the work, either they're using his license without his permission, or he's "renting out" his license. Once he learns of this use, it is in the QE's interest to advise the authorities of the situation; failure to do can result in action against his license as well.

The permit issue is separate from the licensing issue. If the firm is using his license without permission, or he is not allowed to supervise the work, then the permit was issued under false pretenses. If no permit was pulled, the job is illegal regardless of whatever role the QE has in the company.

BTW, there is usually a VERY short period for the company to notify the contractors' board of the loss of their QE, and a short period for them to replace the QE. In Nevada, it's 10 days to report and 30 to replace. I witnessed one firm be shut down by the state after losing their QE. Regardless of requirements, the QE should notify the licensing authority when he severs his relationship with the company.

 

[kwired]

I have a question regarding pulling permits for jobs. The majority of the work is the installation of Security Cameras, and Security Camera recording systems. All Low voltage work.

The installing company hasn't pulled any permits for installation jobs in years.

What are the laws where work was done, were permits required? Some places they are not doing much enforcement on low voltage stuff, even if they have adotpted the NEC which covers low voltage, they don't always inspect low voltage.

My question is 2 parts.

1. what would happen if someone was to turn the company in for not pulling permits?

Again what are the laws where the work was done. That should be a start to find out what to expect.

2. Would the qualifying Employee be responsible in anyway. The qualified employee hasn't been active in the business in years but is still on payroll doing other work outside of electrical work and had no idea that permits were not pulled. He works on the road traveling. He rarely comes home so he didn't know the jobs didn't have permits for years until recently.

The qualified employee was thinking of leaving the company and starting his own business using his license for himself and is worried that if the company gets caught for not pulling permits that it could have a negative effect on him personally and he may lose his license because the permits were not pulled. He feels he may be as guilty as the company for the permits not being pulled.

Can someone shed some light on what the repercussions could be on the qualified employee and the company?

An employee may or may not be held responsible it may come down to a judgement of whether there was any willful misconduct on the employees part or if the employee was just doing his job and following his supervisors wishes.

Are you saying the qualified employee has the license and the employer does not?

The license holder should know better than to let their license be used by anyone but them. If their employer does not have required license then they can not do whatever the license allows them to do without a qualified license holder, the license holder is more less in control of what happens regarding any practices involving the use of the license. The employer can't do much if dissatisfied with the employee other than replace them with someone else qualified or obtain qualification themself.

If that is the case this is not the place for help, license holder needs an attorney.

 

[iwire]

In the situation you describe, the company does NOT have a 'qualifying employee,' and is violating licensing laws by falsly representing that they do have such a person.

So you know the laws in every jurisdiction or do you know where the OP is from?

 

[Cavie]

1st question. Are permits required??? My area does not require LV permits. At least not before the slowdown in construction. they didn't have time.

2nd question. Yes your buddy is responcible. He is renting his license by not supervising or knowing what's going on. If the company gets in trouble, he is responcible and could hinder him starting somthing on his own.

 

[growler]

I have a question regarding pulling permits for jobs. The majority of the work is the installation of Security Cameras, and Security Camera recording systems. All Low voltage work.

If any of this work is new construction then all restricted trades will be signed-in or permitted under the building permit. The work will have been inspected by the electrical inspector.

If this is government work then much of it will not require a permit but will have been inspected by an engineer/tech. working for the government ( their own inspector ).

Some areas don't even require permits for this sort of work.

My guess is that if something were to go wrong in an area where a permit was needed then they could be in trouble but on the other hand this is all in the past and if they are not caught working without a permit then nothing will happen.

If I were this guy I would start checking to see if permits are needed on any future jobs.

 

[jsmalone1]

I have a question regarding pulling permits for jobs. The majority of the work is the installation of Security Cameras, and Security Camera recording systems. All Low voltage work.

The installing company hasn't pulled any permits for installation jobs in years.

My question is 2 parts.

1. what would happen if someone was to turn the company in for not pulling permits?

2. Would the qualifying Employee be responsible in anyway. The qualified employee hasn't been active in the business in years but is still on payroll doing other work outside of electrical work and had no idea that permits were not pulled. He works on the road traveling. He rarely comes home so he didn't know the jobs didn't have permits for years until recently.

The qualified employee was thinking of leaving the company and starting his own business using his license for himself and is worried that if the company gets caught for not pulling permits that it could have a negative effect on him personally and he may lose his license because the permits were not pulled. He feels he may be as guilty as the company for the permits not being pulled.

Can someone shed some light on what the repercussions could be on the qualified employee and the company?

I managed large projects in the Chicago area for years and we did many jobs such as you describe without permits nor being required to do so. Again, the threshold for the requirement of permits varies from place to place. And the opinions on such vary as much as asking for code interpretations. We installed a large security system at Bell Labs (ATT/LUCENT) and had no permit, were not required to have one, and would wonder why & the few inspectors who would even know what to inspect.

 

[satcom]

I managed large projects in the Chicago area for years and we did many jobs such as you describe without permits nor being required to do so. Again, the threshold for the requirement of permits varies from place to place. And the opinions on such vary as much as asking for code interpretations. We installed a large security system at Bell Labs (ATT/LUCENT) and had no permit, were not required to have one, and would wonder why & the few inspectors who would even know what to inspect.

These large companies are usually not exempt from permits, many of them think they are exempt because of their size, laws are for little people, not them, if one of those non permited lv cables droped from the ceiling while fire fighters were working a fire and the cable got intangled in the Scott pack and trapped the fire fighter they would look for the responsible party.

 

[bradleyelectric]

These large companies are usually not exempt from permits, many of them think they are exempt because of their size, laws are for little people, not them, if one of those non permited lv cables droped from the ceiling while fire fighters were working a fire and the cable got intangled in the Scott pack and trapped the fire fighter they would look for the responsible party.

That's what I thought till I worked in a faucility that was so large it had its own fire station and I talked with an AHJ about it.

 

[bradleyelectric]

If any of this work is new construction then all restricted trades will be signed-in or permitted under the building permit. The work will have been inspected by the electrical inspector.

Not in my area. Most counties around here the electrical is not together with the building permit other then you need the building permit on the job before you can get the electrical permit. Baltimore city you need to ammend the building permit to get the electrical permit but it is a seperate fee to do so.

 

[OregonSE]

Oregon violation penalty matrix:
http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/bcd/programs/enforcement/penalty_matrix.pdf
Oregon Fines and License suspensions:

http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/bcd/final_orders/FO_by_name.html

I have a question regarding pulling permits for jobs. The majority of the work is the installation of Security Cameras, and Security Camera recording systems. All Low voltage work.

The installing company hasn't pulled any permits for installation jobs in years.

My question is 2 parts.

1. what would happen if someone was to turn the company in for not pulling permits?

2. Would the qualifying Employee be responsible in anyway. The qualified employee hasn't been active in the business in years but is still on payroll doing other work outside of electrical work and had no idea that permits were not pulled. He works on the road traveling. He rarely comes home so he didn't know the jobs didn't have permits for years until recently.

The qualified employee was thinking of leaving the company and starting his own business using his license for himself and is worried that if the company gets caught for not pulling permits that it could have a negative effect on him personally and he may lose his license because the permits were not pulled. He feels he may be as guilty as the company for the permits not being pulled.

Can someone shed some light on what the repercussions could be on the qualified employee and the company?

 

[220/221]

1. what would happen if someone was to turn the company in for not pulling permits?

Karma would kick in and he'd have to start leading a perfect life in order to avoid it's wrath.

Whatever the issue is, I'd suggest to just let it go.

 

[petersonra]

Obviously a lot depends on where he is at.

In many areas, the AHJ has effectively ceded his role as the AHJ for existing large plants as far as ongoing work is concerned. There are even formal agreements in place in some cases.

The reason being that often in a very technical sense just about all the electrical work being done would require some kind of permit and it is highly impractical to get such permits in a reasonable time frame so work can get done. And often the inspectors have only a vague clue about the work being done anyway and would not know how to inspect such work properly.

There seems to be some push in some areas with the economic slowdown in place to change this because the inspectors don't have much to do and the authorities want the fees to keep coming in.

I can tell you that most of the projects I have worked on, the equipment install is not inspected. The building itself usually is, but not the equipment or the pipe and wire associated with the equipment.

I was in one place a while back where they had a generic building permit on the wall in a picture frame. It said it was good for various kinds of work. I don't recall just what all of them were. I seem to recall among others that plumbing, electrical and excavation were specifically listed. It was good for a full year from the date issued. $50 IIRC. The way it was worded it sounded like it covered just about anything short of building a new building.

 

[SparkyBoy]

UPDATE to OP:

I just got off the phone with him. He's not an intenet guy ( wrong generation! ). He just called me back. I read your responses to him.

He clarfied a couple of things:

There was never Million Dollar jobs, the total of all jobs over the years would be over a million. ( sorry I misunderstood him )

He has pulled a few permits for them in the past when required to do so by the property owner or business owner. If the owner of the property or business didn't require a permit then they didn't pull any. ( I think we all do that )

He is the QE ( Qualified Employee ) on the license. The license is in the corporation name and he's listed as the QE. The QE can be changed if they hire a new employee that has taken and passed the electrical exam or send another employee to be tested on the LAW and TRADE.

He also thinks they would have pulled permits if they thought they were necessary, they pass the cost on to the job anyway.

I'm not sure if any of the above matters or not but I wanted to post exactly his words, my original post wasn't exactly correct.

 

[renosteinke]

This question should be quickly answered, with no room for error, by whomever issued the 'qualification.'

If he's the QE, he takes his qualification with him when he goes ..... he can't open his own shop, but he can become a QE for someone else. In Nevada, an EC takes two tests: trade and business. The QE has taken only the trade test. He would need the business test, and meet the financial requirements, to get his EC license. While the bureaucratic details may differ from place to place, the principle is the same.

When he leaves, the business has to tell the AHJ that they no longer have a QE, and will need to find a replacement.
While the QE may not, strictly speaking, be required to tell the AHJ that he has left, it's in his interest to do so.

Work performed while he was the QE was ostensibly done under his supervision. The OP claimed that he was not performing this duty. That's a distinct issue, and places his own license at risk.

 

[SparkyBoy]

renosteinke,

he had to take both the Trade and the Business Law Test. The license is under the corporation name he works for. They have a President and a director on the license but he was the one that had to take the Trade and Business Exam and is listed as the QUALIFYING EMPLOYEE. The others only had to do fingerprint and application.

Because he has taken both tests CAN he start his own business. I think he has the some money in the bank and can probably pass the financial depending on what they are looking for.

He said today that he wants to start his own business when he leaves the company.

Does it sound like a problem for him or is in normal protocal in Nevada?

 

[renosteinke]

Having taken both tests, he would have to file a financial statement with the contractors' board. He can do it himself, or have a CPA do it. The board would then decide how large of a job to authorise him to do, have him obtain workmans' comp (or sign a waiver), and he would have to post a bond for that amount. Now he's done with the state board. (I'm not sure if the board would issue him a new license number).

(Not asked, but ... workmans' comp costs about $1000/ year, and the bond $150 for $10K. A separate state license is required for working on mobile homes / manufacturered housing- of which there is plenty. City and county business licenses are priced differently, but an 'average' would be $50 each)

Having a license, he would then be able to register with the state tax folks, get local business licenses, etc.

I'm currently going through a similar process in Arkansas. Here one bureaucracy would issue a Master's license, while another controls contractors' licenses. In Arkansas, a 'masters' is all you need to be able to contract jobs up to $20K. Otherwise, the contractors' board requirements are similar to Nevada's.

In neighboring Missouri, every county is different. Some require nothing at all, while others are quite selective. In the case of St. Louis, you need separate creds for the city and the county.

 

[xformer]

Where does one go to find out the permit requirements for the are in which they work??

 

[John120/240]

Try the city hall or county court house, wherever building permits are issued.