PERMITS
- Thread starter dadeo
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: PERMITS
I have always heard it refereed to a 'maintenance permit' and as I understand it you can only perform repairs to existing installations. For any new installations you must pull a separate permit for and get inspections.
That is what I have been told I have not read anything specifically about this so don't take it as a fact.
You best bet is a call to the local inspector and ask them what they expect.
I have always heard it refereed to a 'maintenance permit' and as I understand it you can only perform repairs to existing installations. For any new installations you must pull a separate permit for and get inspections.
That is what I have been told I have not read anything specifically about this so don't take it as a fact.
You best bet is a call to the local inspector and ask them what they expect.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: PERMITS
Here in Milford, Ma we issue a maintenance permit for industrial facilities which will cover repairs and minor installations annually. We then want documentatin as to what was done. Major installations will require a separate permit. Definitely check with local inspector because every municipality has their own policy. There are no state rules governing this.
Bob, were you really up at 4:30 a.m. posting? Impressive.
Here in Milford, Ma we issue a maintenance permit for industrial facilities which will cover repairs and minor installations annually. We then want documentatin as to what was done. Major installations will require a separate permit. Definitely check with local inspector because every municipality has their own policy. There are no state rules governing this.
Bob, were you really up at 4:30 a.m. posting? Impressive.
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: PERMITS
This does depend on the municipality you are in and would be pulling a permit in.
I pull a 'maintenance' permit for the year, then periodically let the inspector know what I am doing.
This does not include construction, here. I would have to pull a permit for any construction/remodel projects that I have.
This does depend on the municipality you are in and would be pulling a permit in.
I pull a 'maintenance' permit for the year, then periodically let the inspector know what I am doing.
This does not include construction, here. I would have to pull a permit for any construction/remodel projects that I have.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: PERMITS
the reason they "get away with it" is that many localities do not require industrial facilities to get permits.
it is assumed they know what they are doing, and usually that is the case. besides, most local electrical inspectors would not have a clue about what goes on in most industrial settings.
better not to meddle in something they know very little about.
the reason they "get away with it" is that many localities do not require industrial facilities to get permits.
it is assumed they know what they are doing, and usually that is the case. besides, most local electrical inspectors would not have a clue about what goes on in most industrial settings.
better not to meddle in something they know very little about.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: PERMITS
It is not the inspectors job to go and knock on every business and ask if electric work is being done. It is the responsibility of the facility to notify the inspector.
It makes little difference what you make or how complicated your machinery might be. The inspector can still inspect for code violations.
Industrial locations in my experience do very well compiling with safety rules, OSHA, etc but do poorly complying with the NEC.
They seem to feel they need not bother with the NEC or that it does not apply to them. :roll:
In this area the reason they "get away with it" is because the industrial facilities have your attitude that they are above the rules.
It is not the inspectors job to go and knock on every business and ask if electric work is being done. It is the responsibility of the facility to notify the inspector.
That is nonsense.
It makes little difference what you make or how complicated your machinery might be. The inspector can still inspect for code violations.
Industrial locations in my experience do very well compiling with safety rules, OSHA, etc but do poorly complying with the NEC.
They seem to feel they need not bother with the NEC or that it does not apply to them. :roll:
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: PERMITS
I also think it is a stretch to say that an inspector doesn't know anything about it. I really don't care what it is, what it does, why you need it or how it works...but I can probably tell you if you wired it in compliance with the NEC.
The reason they get away with it is becasue of the 4th amendment. It is pretty hard for me as an inspector to show up to a building, flash a badge, and demand entrance for an inspection. That would be an illegal search and siezure.
Thats quite an assumption. On the one hand, you have people like Don here that could school any one of us on the code, and on the other hand you have some of the industrial electricians that I have taught CEU seminars to, who knew nothing about anything.
I also think it is a stretch to say that an inspector doesn't know anything about it. I really don't care what it is, what it does, why you need it or how it works...but I can probably tell you if you wired it in compliance with the NEC.
Re: PERMITS
ok I heard a lot of different versions of this at one time you worked for a company and they wanted yr masters number to pull this maint. permit. Then I was told you didn't even need a license to get one anymore.Once even told you didn't need a license to do sm elect repairs like small moter replacements limit sw repair etc. As for doing inhouse projects (new installs)I've never seen a permit pulled in 30 yrs.And what happens when you got two,three ,or even four journeymen working together? Not to say I haven't seen some pretty frightnig stuff in these plants.I wouldn't mind seeing an inspect now and then. Where i am now its a union shop maint shop and this permit stuff is causing problems . one guy wont work on a job because he says someone else pulled the permit. which i know there is no permit. i was told by supervisor that they have an agreement with the inspector that all these jobs are logged and he can come by anytime and go through and inspect . I'm pretty sure hes lying again. I'm starting to believe that even the outside contractor don't even pull permits here. Its in the contract that they must be posted at the entrance of the grounds but that don't seem to matter either. I've only seen building permits there. seems like all the osha permits are in line . but never an electrical????/
ok I heard a lot of different versions of this at one time you worked for a company and they wanted yr masters number to pull this maint. permit. Then I was told you didn't even need a license to get one anymore.Once even told you didn't need a license to do sm elect repairs like small moter replacements limit sw repair etc. As for doing inhouse projects (new installs)I've never seen a permit pulled in 30 yrs.And what happens when you got two,three ,or even four journeymen working together? Not to say I haven't seen some pretty frightnig stuff in these plants.I wouldn't mind seeing an inspect now and then. Where i am now its a union shop maint shop and this permit stuff is causing problems . one guy wont work on a job because he says someone else pulled the permit. which i know there is no permit. i was told by supervisor that they have an agreement with the inspector that all these jobs are logged and he can come by anytime and go through and inspect . I'm pretty sure hes lying again. I'm starting to believe that even the outside contractor don't even pull permits here. Its in the contract that they must be posted at the entrance of the grounds but that don't seem to matter either. I've only seen building permits there. seems like all the osha permits are in line . but never an electrical????/
electric_instructor
Senior Member
Re: PERMITS
Where the TRUE problem is, is WHO stands to lose if the business owner loses the property?
The code attempts to protect HOME OWNERS, and commercial business owners, who don't have KNOWLEDGABLE employees.
In the case of an industrial property, who hires KNOWLEDABLE electricians, as full time employees, then (like a homeowner) they assume the liability themselves.
If a KNOWLEDGABLE electrician (employee) causes the entire facility to burn down, who is then liable? The employer that hired him!
The CODE, and the inspectors that enforce it, are for the protection of those who DON"T know any better, or have any kind of supervision.
Where the TRUE problem is, is WHO stands to lose if the business owner loses the property?
The code attempts to protect HOME OWNERS, and commercial business owners, who don't have KNOWLEDGABLE employees.
In the case of an industrial property, who hires KNOWLEDABLE electricians, as full time employees, then (like a homeowner) they assume the liability themselves.
If a KNOWLEDGABLE electrician (employee) causes the entire facility to burn down, who is then liable? The employer that hired him!
The CODE, and the inspectors that enforce it, are for the protection of those who DON"T know any better, or have any kind of supervision.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: PERMITS
There are no exception for "KNOWLEDABLE electricians". :roll:
But hey your right who cares if the work is not done correctly and innocent employees get electrocuted or are burned in a fire. It will be the business responsibility.
I do not know the law in your area but here anyone that performs electric work for pay must be licensed and must have the work inspected.Originally posted by electric_instructor:
In the case of an industrial property, who hires KNOWLEDABLE electricians, as full time employees, then (like a homeowner) they assume the liability themselves.
If a KNOWLEDGABLE electrician (employee) causes the entire facility to burn down, who is then liable? The employer that hired him!
The CODE, and the inspectors that enforce it, are for the protection of those who DON"T know any better, or have any kind of supervision.
There are no exception for "KNOWLEDABLE electricians". :roll:
But hey your right who cares if the work is not done correctly and innocent employees get electrocuted or are burned in a fire. It will be the business responsibility.
electric_instructor
Senior Member
Re: PERMITS
Such is life, politics, and taxes.
Usually the employer has insurance for the employees who are injured or killed.
Point is - THEY are the responcible party, in todays world, of sue happy people, that is the bottom line.
Just be happy that the code, and the inspectors are here to protect the rest of us poor slobs! LOL
Such is life, politics, and taxes.
Usually the employer has insurance for the employees who are injured or killed.
Point is - THEY are the responcible party, in todays world, of sue happy people, that is the bottom line.
Just be happy that the code, and the inspectors are here to protect the rest of us poor slobs! LOL
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: PERMITS
The installer and the company they work for are always fully responsibility for the work they perform. An inspection does not release any liability from the installer.
An inspection helps insure that the NEC is complied with. Compliance with the NEC protects the people that have to live and work around electrical installations. If you do not believe that how do you tech it?
I am entirely missing your point, this has nothing to do with who will be liable.
The installer and the company they work for are always fully responsibility for the work they perform. An inspection does not release any liability from the installer.
An inspection helps insure that the NEC is complied with. Compliance with the NEC protects the people that have to live and work around electrical installations. If you do not believe that how do you tech it?
electric_instructor
Senior Member
Re: PERMITS
I'm only saying that, like a homeowner that chooses to do their own work, if the home burns down, it is thier own fault.
In the case of a hired maintenance electrician, in the case of a privatly owned facility, the company that hires him/her is responsible for their work, and any damages they may cause.
If ANYTHING happens, they are LIABLE for it.
In the case of a contractor, who charges money, on a contracted basis, (this includes service work) there must be a way to hold them responsible for the work.
Thus the tree, ONLY one master can represent a contractor, (he/she is personally responsible), and the journeyman must asnswer to the master, then the apprentice, who must answer to the journeyman.
I'm only saying that, like a homeowner that chooses to do their own work, if the home burns down, it is thier own fault.
In the case of a hired maintenance electrician, in the case of a privatly owned facility, the company that hires him/her is responsible for their work, and any damages they may cause.
If ANYTHING happens, they are LIABLE for it.
In the case of a contractor, who charges money, on a contracted basis, (this includes service work) there must be a way to hold them responsible for the work.
Thus the tree, ONLY one master can represent a contractor, (he/she is personally responsible), and the journeyman must asnswer to the master, then the apprentice, who must answer to the journeyman.
electric_instructor
Senior Member
Re: PERMITS
Ask yourself this? (I honestly don't know how it works in your area) WHO is ABLE to pull the permit?
THAT person, or company, is the responsible party.
Ask yourself this? (I honestly don't know how it works in your area) WHO is ABLE to pull the permit?
THAT person, or company, is the responsible party.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: PERMITS
Here you must be a license holder to obtain a permit.
But again I do not believe this thread is about who will be responsible.
IMO, the point is compliance with the NEC not who will pay for damages if the installation causes a loss.
Here you must be a license holder to obtain a permit.
But again I do not believe this thread is about who will be responsible.
IMO, the point is compliance with the NEC not who will pay for damages if the installation causes a loss.
electric_instructor
Senior Member
Re: PERMITS
I agree 100%
However, this is a cruel, hard world, and it all boils down to, - who can we blaime?
I have met many inspectors who didn't know squat! Just having a job inspected is NOT a guarantee.
As you have said, an inspection doesn't relieve the installer of obligation.
At least, with the permit system, there is a trail, one that leads to a final, responsible party! THE master electrician.
I have worked for a Major company, that did Plumbing, and mechanical work first, and expanded into HVAC work(which I have education, and experience in also).
Then they decided that they could save money by hiring their own master electrician, and doing thier own work, instead of hiring an electrical contractor!
Well, MY mistake was ever going to work for them in the first place! LOL
They didn't EVER wanna pull permits, or get inspections! Needless to say, I no longer represent their business either!
Would have cost me my license sooner or later.
I agree 100%
However, this is a cruel, hard world, and it all boils down to, - who can we blaime?
I have met many inspectors who didn't know squat! Just having a job inspected is NOT a guarantee.
As you have said, an inspection doesn't relieve the installer of obligation.
At least, with the permit system, there is a trail, one that leads to a final, responsible party! THE master electrician.
I have worked for a Major company, that did Plumbing, and mechanical work first, and expanded into HVAC work(which I have education, and experience in also).
Then they decided that they could save money by hiring their own master electrician, and doing thier own work, instead of hiring an electrical contractor!
Well, MY mistake was ever going to work for them in the first place! LOL
They didn't EVER wanna pull permits, or get inspections! Needless to say, I no longer represent their business either!
Would have cost me my license sooner or later.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: PERMITS
I get a laugh out of the part of the EC being responsable.Many here have 30 to 200 men under them and the hired help is not required to have any license.How can 1 man know what all is happening every day? Often the master has never even seen or been to the job site.Unless they make major goofs they keep license.What shuts them down is the insurance company.Too many claims and no insurance company will take them.
I get a laugh out of the part of the EC being responsable.Many here have 30 to 200 men under them and the hired help is not required to have any license.How can 1 man know what all is happening every day? Often the master has never even seen or been to the job site.Unless they make major goofs they keep license.What shuts them down is the insurance company.Too many claims and no insurance company will take them.
electric_instructor
Senior Member
Re: PERMITS
Exactly my point! where does the trail end?
At the Master electrician who pulls the permit!
If he can't keep up, then who's fault is that?
Ultimately it is the master who pulled the permit who is responsible!
Lets hope that the master has some REALLY good Journeyman, who will watch his back!
Want the job?
Exactly my point! where does the trail end?
At the Master electrician who pulls the permit!
If he can't keep up, then who's fault is that?
Ultimately it is the master who pulled the permit who is responsible!
Lets hope that the master has some REALLY good Journeyman, who will watch his back!
Want the job?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: PERMITS
I imagine as a license holder am expected to refuse to do non-compliant work even if directed to do so by my employer.
If you want later I can dig up the actual law.
Jim here, by law each licensed man can only have 1 non-licensed person under their supervision. The license holder is ultimately responsible for the work they perform.
I imagine as a license holder am expected to refuse to do non-compliant work even if directed to do so by my employer.
If you want later I can dig up the actual law.
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