How do handle a job where you go to the persons house and they have already tried to do the electrical work themselves only to realize its not as easy as they thought it was going to be, and then you have to pull a permit. Do you call in the permit and explain to the permit dept. that the job was already started by the homeowner and you want to finish the job? The H.O. wired the kitchen he remodeled with 14/2 UF cable, and ran 100' of UF cable underground from a kitchen receptacle out to his utility shed to feed a receptacle. The wire has already been buried so the inspector wont be able to see if its at the correct burial depth.
Permits
- Thread starter cartman
- Start date
- Status
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Permits
I would tell the homeowner that I have to redo just about everything and do it. That would assure everything meets Code. It is your responsibility if you take the job. If Joe Homeowner doesn't want you to redo everything, it is time to walk . . . and do it fast.
I would tell the homeowner that I have to redo just about everything and do it. That would assure everything meets Code. It is your responsibility if you take the job. If Joe Homeowner doesn't want you to redo everything, it is time to walk . . . and do it fast.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Permits
I agree with Charlie.Anything involving this kitchen now falls on you.Now if that garage came from another circuit or there are other violations you were not called for then i would put the customer on notice that the inspector will likely require them repaired.Put this statement on the bill.
I agree with Charlie.Anything involving this kitchen now falls on you.Now if that garage came from another circuit or there are other violations you were not called for then i would put the customer on notice that the inspector will likely require them repaired.Put this statement on the bill.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Permits
It can't come off of the Kitchen circut.
Listen to Charlie's advise.
Who cares if it is at the correct burial depth.
It can't come off of the Kitchen circut.
Listen to Charlie's advise.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Permits
And I was getting the business for plumbing...
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Permits
is there something wrong with using 14/2 UF cable in his kitchen?
or are you worried about the ouside UF cable not being deep enough?
i am also curious as to why you would need a permit to do some minor repair work.
is there something wrong with using 14/2 UF cable in his kitchen?
or are you worried about the ouside UF cable not being deep enough?
i am also curious as to why you would need a permit to do some minor repair work.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Permits
Bob NEC requires 20 amp circuits in a dwelling kitchen so 14 AWG is small and you can not tap off of them to feed other outlets (other than a few specified locations)
Here in MA we are supposed to pull a permit to perform any electric work.
We can get a maintenance permit for an address that we go to a lot, still need inspections.
[ January 17, 2005, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Bob NEC requires 20 amp circuits in a dwelling kitchen so 14 AWG is small and you can not tap off of them to feed other outlets (other than a few specified locations)
Here in MA we are supposed to pull a permit to perform any electric work.
We can get a maintenance permit for an address that we go to a lot, still need inspections.
[ January 17, 2005, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Permits
Need some coffee?
[ January 17, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Mr. Peterson (there's too many Bobs around here), The HO used 14 for his receptacles. UF or not, he used #14 for his receptacles.
I imagine he's worried that the UF is attached to the kitchen receptacles, for one. Proving the depth of the UF is an issue too. "Round here you'd be in the yard with a shovel finding it, if the AHJ wanted proof of depth.
Need some coffee?
[ January 17, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Permits
This is what I see.
1. HO calls and wants some minor repair work done.
2. Electrician comes out and finds some violations of code, but nothing that is an imminent hazard (assuming the #14 wires are protected by 15A CBs).
3. In your state even minor repairs have to be permitted.
4. Electrician and HO discuss what repairs the HO wants done.
5. Permit is received for whatever work is agreed to.
6. If the inspector happens to notice things outside the scope of the permit that are not up to code, thats a seperate issue.
If there were things that were a serious hazard, I would make sure the HO was well aware of the them and why they were a hazard, but it does not seem to me that trying to bring the whole place up to code is part of the scope.
You have to draw a line in the sand as to the scope of work at some point.
Just curious about a few things.
1. How minor of a repair job is required to get a permit? can you replace a light fixture? an outlet? a light bulb?
2. If the inspector comes out to inspect some work and finds violations of the current code outside the scope of the permit will he require that it be brought up to current code as well?
This is what I see.
1. HO calls and wants some minor repair work done.
2. Electrician comes out and finds some violations of code, but nothing that is an imminent hazard (assuming the #14 wires are protected by 15A CBs).
3. In your state even minor repairs have to be permitted.
4. Electrician and HO discuss what repairs the HO wants done.
5. Permit is received for whatever work is agreed to.
6. If the inspector happens to notice things outside the scope of the permit that are not up to code, thats a seperate issue.
If there were things that were a serious hazard, I would make sure the HO was well aware of the them and why they were a hazard, but it does not seem to me that trying to bring the whole place up to code is part of the scope.
You have to draw a line in the sand as to the scope of work at some point.
Just curious about a few things.
1. How minor of a repair job is required to get a permit? can you replace a light fixture? an outlet? a light bulb?
2. If the inspector comes out to inspect some work and finds violations of the current code outside the scope of the permit will he require that it be brought up to current code as well?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Permits
I'm not sure a permit would be pulled on this in CO. Your two questions would vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
I would get the kitchen separated from the UF going to the shed, so the 15 amp kitchen isn't involved in the professional work. Explaining to the inspector that it was buried prior to you setting foot on the project should (hopefully) get your fat out of the fire.
I'm not sure a permit would be pulled on this in CO. Your two questions would vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
The NFPA's intent is clear, but only if adopted. See 80.9(B). (NEC 2005-Annex G.)
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Permits
Is this enforced / respected 100% no, things do get done without permits but getting caught will cost you.
The inspecor really can not make us fix things outside the scope of our work.
527 CMR 12.00: 2002 MASSACHUSETTS ELECTRICAL CODE
(AMENDMENTS)
Here is part of Mass General law Chapter 143: Section 3L Regulations relative to electrical wiring and fixtures; notice of electrical installation.
Troubleshooting, preventive maintenance no permit needed, install anything, permits and inspections are required.
Is this enforced / respected 100% no, things do get done without permits but getting caught will cost you.
The inspecor really can not make us fix things outside the scope of our work.
527 CMR 12.00: 2002 MASSACHUSETTS ELECTRICAL CODE
(AMENDMENTS)
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Permits
I agree there are some code violations here. But I don't see any hazards.
I'm not sure what 80.9(B) has to do with it. The question was really "will the inspector look at anything outside the scope of the permit"?
I am not suggesting anyone do something dangerous or unethical, or even outside the rules.
It seems to me that from an ethical and moral point of view, its not an evil thing to sit down with the HO and show him:
1. Items that are a hazard and need to be fixed, regardless of whether they are to code or not.
2. Items that do not meet current code but don't present a hazard. However during an inspection the inspector might comment on them, and/or require some remedial action.
3. Items that might not present a hazard and/or are not code and may well be less than desirable (like plugging in a weed wacker out back and having it trip your microwave oven circuit).
4. Any new work you do will be to code. That might involve redoing some or all of the existing work.
If the HO wants to do things you are uncomfortable with, tell him thanks but no thanks. You might also point out that its in his own best interests to have the work done correctly and safely, and could well affect his ability to sell the house at some point in the future.
I agree there are some code violations here. But I don't see any hazards.
I'm not sure what 80.9(B) has to do with it. The question was really "will the inspector look at anything outside the scope of the permit"?
I am not suggesting anyone do something dangerous or unethical, or even outside the rules.
It seems to me that from an ethical and moral point of view, its not an evil thing to sit down with the HO and show him:
1. Items that are a hazard and need to be fixed, regardless of whether they are to code or not.
2. Items that do not meet current code but don't present a hazard. However during an inspection the inspector might comment on them, and/or require some remedial action.
3. Items that might not present a hazard and/or are not code and may well be less than desirable (like plugging in a weed wacker out back and having it trip your microwave oven circuit).
4. Any new work you do will be to code. That might involve redoing some or all of the existing work.
If the HO wants to do things you are uncomfortable with, tell him thanks but no thanks. You might also point out that its in his own best interests to have the work done correctly and safely, and could well affect his ability to sell the house at some point in the future.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Permits
Iwire - are you telling me you could not replace a defective light switch without a permit in MA?
Iwire - are you telling me you could not replace a defective light switch without a permit in MA?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Permits
That is why it is smart to pull 'maintenance permits' for regular customers. They cover you for things like replacing a panel or a light switch etc.
I was an in house electrician for a large facility in RI and once a year I would have to renew the maintenance permit for that facility.
However holding a maintenance permit on a particular property does not allow new work, new work would require a separate permit.
Remember the $ for the permit is directly related to the amount of electrical work being performed, the state wants their cut.
That said what the law requires and what really happens are not necessarily the same thing.
I would be installing the new switch.
That is why it is smart to pull 'maintenance permits' for regular customers. They cover you for things like replacing a panel or a light switch etc.
I was an in house electrician for a large facility in RI and once a year I would have to renew the maintenance permit for that facility.
However holding a maintenance permit on a particular property does not allow new work, new work would require a separate permit.
Remember the $ for the permit is directly related to the amount of electrical work being performed, the state wants their cut.
That said what the law requires and what really happens are not necessarily the same thing.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Permits
Where I live, here in Minnesota, the inspector would recognize the newly trenched wire and circuit. The homeowner would be required to exhume the buried wire and any other new circuits for inspection. Failure to comply would likely result in power disconnection. I had a friend that tried to complete some work without inspection (thought he was above it) and was faced with similar consequences.
Bob
Where I live, here in Minnesota, the inspector would recognize the newly trenched wire and circuit. The homeowner would be required to exhume the buried wire and any other new circuits for inspection. Failure to comply would likely result in power disconnection. I had a friend that tried to complete some work without inspection (thought he was above it) and was faced with similar consequences.
Bob
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Permits
Cartman,
I run into this, from time to time. I work in Minnesota, like bthielen, and know the AHJ rests with one body, Minnesota Electricity Board. Minnesota State statute empowers the inspector to examine wiring concealed before inspection, the person responsible for concealing the wiring shall be responsible for all costs resulting from uncovering and replacing the covering material. Minnesota Rules part 3800.3770
You will need to know your ordinances that apply to the job address.
The homeowner created his own problems. You are the middleman between him and the AHJ, only to the extent that you want to take it on.
I always take stock of the entire system, when I find evidence of a less than capable installer. If it looks like the shoddy work is localized, I am more likely to take on the job (only because of customer sticker shock/denial resulting in higher likelyhood of wasted effort on my part). . .but even the appearance of localization can be deceiving. What I have to work on, I have to leave in a state that complies with the NEC and local ordinance.
To determine your course, I submit, since this is a point of question for you, meet with the local inspector at that jobsite and learn from him what his minimum requirements are. Then, with any luck, you will be able to come to a financial arrangement with the owner and complete the necessary work.
If not. . .like I said, the homeowner created his own problem.
Cartman,
I run into this, from time to time. I work in Minnesota, like bthielen, and know the AHJ rests with one body, Minnesota Electricity Board. Minnesota State statute empowers the inspector to examine wiring concealed before inspection, the person responsible for concealing the wiring shall be responsible for all costs resulting from uncovering and replacing the covering material. Minnesota Rules part 3800.3770
You will need to know your ordinances that apply to the job address.
The homeowner created his own problems. You are the middleman between him and the AHJ, only to the extent that you want to take it on.
I always take stock of the entire system, when I find evidence of a less than capable installer. If it looks like the shoddy work is localized, I am more likely to take on the job (only because of customer sticker shock/denial resulting in higher likelyhood of wasted effort on my part). . .but even the appearance of localization can be deceiving. What I have to work on, I have to leave in a state that complies with the NEC and local ordinance.
To determine your course, I submit, since this is a point of question for you, meet with the local inspector at that jobsite and learn from him what his minimum requirements are. Then, with any luck, you will be able to come to a financial arrangement with the owner and complete the necessary work.
If not. . .like I said, the homeowner created his own problem.
- Status