PF and Drives ?

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Mike01

Senior Member
Location
MidWest
Just curious if anyone has any good reference information on how the use of VFD’s affects the incoming [drive line side] P.F., from what I have been reading [via. The google] when operating on a drive the line side power factor is improved because the reactive power is circulated between the drive and the motor?? Just curious on the how and why’s??

Because I noticed on recent actual PQ report at one location where the use included a large DC motor drive [I believe it was an older GE Silcomatic drive SCR I think] and a different location that utilized drives for testing [Dyno. Cabinets], that when operated at low load the line side power factor was very poor? The one included a large capacitor bank on the input / line side of the drive input transformer [medium voltage] I assume to address this issue so the site did not suffer from the affects at low speed?

Is there a difference in the way a typically motor drive [fan / pump] and test type drives operate that cause the difference / affect the line side power factor?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
reactive current that causes power factor is current that passes back and forth between the load and the source, but does no work. It still is current flowing on the conductors and causes more resistive losses on those conductors because the current is there.

With a VFD the drive converts the incoming power to DC current, then inverts it back to AC with a modified sine wave and at the necessary voltage and frequency for the desired output speed. This makes the output side of the drive a separate source isolated from the input source, power factor is not a DC current characteristic so it doesn't pass through the rectifier on the front end of the drive. The exchange of the reactive current in this situation is between the motor and drive, and the supply side is at or very near 100% power factor. There may be "distortion power factor" from high speed switching, which happens with a lot of electronic driven loads, but there is no reactive power outside of very minor capacitive effects between conductors on the supply side.
 

ron

Senior Member
The solid state nature of the VFD, isolates the input from the output. If there is a bypass, then all bets are off when you are in bypass.

The input power factor of the VFD is usually pretty high, close to 1. Due to reduction of input harmonics, I wouldn't be suprised if some VFDs may have a slightly leading power factor due to capacitance in the filter used to reduce harmonics in certain loading conditions.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The solid state nature of the VFD, isolates the input from the output. If there is a bypass, then all bets are off when you are in bypass.

The input power factor of the VFD is usually pretty high, close to 1. Due to reduction of input harmonics, I wouldn't be suprised if some VFDs may have a slightly leading power factor due to capacitance in the filter used to reduce harmonics in certain loading conditions.

didn't think of a bypass - yes those would put same power factor on the supply side when in bypass.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Just curious if anyone has any good reference information on how the use of VFD’s affects the incoming [drive line side] P.F., from what I have been reading [via. The google] when operating on a drive the line side power factor is improved because the reactive power is circulated between the drive and the motor?? Just curious on the how and why’s??

Because I noticed on recent actual PQ report at one location where the use included a large DC motor drive [I believe it was an older GE Silcomatic drive SCR I think] and a different location that utilized drives for testing [Dyno. Cabinets], that when operated at low load the line side power factor was very poor? The one included a large capacitor bank on the input / line side of the drive input transformer [medium voltage] I assume to address this issue so the site did not suffer from the affects at low speed?

Is there a difference in the way a typically motor drive [fan / pump] and test type drives operate that cause the difference / affect the line side power factor?
The input power stage of a typical three pase drive is a diode bridge. Its power factor comes in two flavours - displacement and distortion. Displacement is when the current lags or leads the applied voltage. That doesn't happen with a typical VFD buut does with a phase-controlled DC drive.

Distortion occurs because the drive input current is non sinusoidal.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Yes, modern AC or DC PWM inverter drives will correct the power factor, but not some types of older DC Drives and older AC Current Souce Inverters that used phase angle controlled or GTO SCR front end rectifiers. Those would show a poor power factor at low speeds, but for the most part, nobody makes those.

In the newer PWM drives there is a simple diode bridge rectifier followed by a capacitor bank for smoothing the ripple in the DC from that bridge. That cap bank then also serves as the source of reactive energy (VARs) circulating between the drive and motor. So the effect is that the drive draws mostly kVA from the line, even though the motor draws kW from the drive, so from the perspective of the line side, the motor displacement power factor is corrected. The drive however then creates distortion power factor in the harmonics it creates on the line. Distortion power factor is more difficult to read with a simple VAR meter, so usually the utility doesn't see it all. So the net effect is that you can consider the motor PF to be corrected to a .95 regardless of load. A standard drive cannot promise full unity or leading power factor.

That has changed with the coming of Active Front End (AFE) PWM drives. Those drive don't use a diode bridge Front End, they use another inverter, either to deliver regenerative energy back to the line for braking, or to just neutralize the harmonics seen by the line source. SOME (not all) of those AFE drives, because they use an L-C-L filter ahead of them, are indeed capable of running at unity power factor, then some even modify the way the Front End fires in order to use the caps in the filter to export VARs, meaning they put out a leading PF that can correct for other loads. But it is ONLY the AFE drives that can do this, and not ALL of the AFE drive topologies out there are capable of it.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Yes, modern AC or DC PWM inverter drives will correct the power factor, but not some types of older DC Drives and older AC Current Souce Inverters that used phase angle controlled or GTO SCR front end rectifiers. Those would show a poor power factor at low speeds, but for the most part, nobody makes those.

In the newer PWM drives there is a simple diode bridge rectifier followed by a capacitor bank for smoothing the ripple in the DC from that bridge. That cap bank then also serves as the source of reactive energy (VARs) circulating between the drive and motor.
Yes, but the point was about the line side. This has no reactive energy circulating.
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
Gentlepeople,

Reactive energy circulation... poppy-cock!

The capacitor certainly affects input power factor! But, while it (input pf) is readily measured, it's difficult to calculate. However, if one insists on wanting to know what happens if X-cap is replaced with Y-cap, then a figure-of-merit, what I call the Supply-Utilization-Factor or SUV, can be used!

It's derived from what is used to size transformers in AC-DC rectifier circuits, i.e., the Transformer-Utilization-Factor, then:

SUV = Pac(out)/VA(in) = 0.746xHP(out)/VA(in).

Remember... it is only a figure-of-merit!

Regards, Phil Corso
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
This is a good read for the vfd non experts like me lol
http://www04.abb.com/GLOBAL/seitp/seitp202.nsf/viewunid/57D1C4FC9FB087F885256D420065AF11/$file/Power+Factor+Improved+Via+AC+Drives+-+Release.pdf

My take
offhand the vfd is non-linear device
it does have C and L elements, filters and pwr sup caps
imo in general C>L so some pf correction is performed
the C will supply Q to the motor lessening the demand on the supply therefor slightly improving pf
this is my laymans understanding for what it is worth
 

Mike01

Senior Member
Location
MidWest
Drive Construction

Drive Construction

Thanks, for all the good information definitely helpful, so this has got me interested more now in the actual construction of the VFD itself….I assume with the input you have the diodes with a a dc bus then the IGBT inverter part. Can anyone point me to any good reads on how each part is constructed / operates to achieve the desired output. Also when looking at the basic wiring schematic what is the difference between the source and sink control inputs?
 

Mike01

Senior Member
Location
MidWest
frequency

frequency

To add to that what is the typical carrier frequency / switching frequency used in common drive construction? And who or what determines the final carrier frequency setting? from some additional reading it appears this influences the recommend conductor length from the drive to the motor as well, it appears there may be advantages to lower vs higher, but when one installs a drive “out of the box” what would the default be and who or why would one change it?
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Thanks, for all the good information definitely helpful, so this has got me interested more now in the actual construction of the VFD itself….I assume with the input you have the diodes with a a dc bus then the IGBT inverter part. Can anyone point me to any good reads on how each part is constructed / operates to achieve the desired output. Also when looking at the basic wiring schematic what is the difference between the source and sink control inputs?

vfd's are complex with many different implementation methodologies
albiet with a few common ones
entire college courses on the subject: rectifiers, inverters, converters, etc
even grad degree concentrations, the basis is ss power electronics
the math can be quite daunting lol

2 guys who posted in this thread I would consider subject matter experts
Besoeker and Jraef

a quick search yielded this primer
http://efcnetwork.org/documents/2013/09/ut_em3_variablefreqdrivetheory.pdf

what helped me was using a simulation/modeling program
you can build devices or use pre-packaged ones
you can change things:.carrier, switching, modulation index, etc to see the efect on output quality (and input impact)
 
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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
vfd's are complex with many different implementation methodologies
albiet with a few common ones
entire college courses on the subject: rectifiers, inverters, converters, etc
even grad degree concentrations, the basis is ss power electronics
the math can be quite daunting lol

2 guys who posted in this thread I would consider subject matter experts

Thank you kindly Mr Ing..
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
That's a lot of requests and the concepts are intermingled with others. You may want to look for a local basics training class to get a deeper dive. I teach a class like this called VFD-101, it's a 6 hour class. That would be a lot of typing... But I'll try to give you the highlights.

Thanks, for all the good information definitely helpful, so this has got me interested more now in the actual construction of the VFD itself….I assume with the input you have the diodes with a a dc bus then the IGBT inverter part. Can anyone point me to any good reads on how each part is constructed / operates to achieve the desired output.
I'll get back to that or others may have some for you.

Also when looking at the basic wiring schematic what is the difference between the source and sink control inputs?
On small DC inputs, it just denotes whether the input is looking for a change on the DC positive side or the negative side. It makes a difference based on the type of electronic output field device or PLC output you are using to signal the drive inputs. You only really care in that they must match, so the drives are usually configurable to match whatever you have. If your field devices are real contact closures, it makes no difference.

To add to that what is the typical carrier frequency / switching frequency used in common drive construction?
It's a complex story, hang tight.

The output going to the motor is a series of DC pulses of a uniform potential, then the motor voltage is varied by the timing of successive On pulses and no pulses forming blocks of On time and Off time, referred to as Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). The inductive circuit that is the motor stator coils makes it so that current from those progressively wider then narrower pulse widths cannot change rapidly, called the "inductive time constant", and the net result is that although the peaks of all of the individual pulses are identical, the RMS (Root Mean Squared, a form of moving average) of voltage is controlled by altering the timing of the On pulses and gaps between them. At the same time, the VFD output has two DC pulse trains for each phase; one going from 0V to maximin positive, the other going from 0V to maximum negative. By changing how often you switch back and forth between + & -, you change the frequency getting to the motor. Combining that with the PWM voltage control, you create a full sine wave of RMS voltage at controllable frequency going to the motor. So by controlling the frequency and the RMS voltage, you can maintain the ratio of voltage and frequency that the motor was designed for so that the motor can produce full torque at any speed (in theory).

Within all of that stuff going on, the carrier frequency (CF) is the basic pulse rate of those high speed DC pulses making up the PWM output. It's not related to the output frequency going to the motor, it's the internal pulse firing speed of the transistors themselves, usually in the area of 1 through 16kHZ. The higher the CF, the smoother the sine wave looks to the motor, so the motor runs quieter. That's because inside of the motor, the steel parts of the stator core are made of stacked plates that are bolted/riveted together (on small motors, welded together on larger ones). The DC pulses cause what is called "magnetostrictive" vibrations in those plates that become a high pitched whining sound. The higher the CF, the higher the pitch and if you get the pitch to above 10kHz, most humans can no longer hear it (5kHZ if you are over 50 I've discovered...). However there is no free lunch as they say, so increasing the CF also increases the switching losses in the transistors of the drive, making the drive itself run hotter. Therefore if you increase the CF, you must also de-rate the drive. Every mfr has a different formula on how you do this, some more accurate than others, some almost impossible to understand as well because this is, as you can see, a complex subject that tends to not translate well from Chinese, so the cheap junk drives on FleaBay may not help you understand this well.

And who or what determines the final carrier frequency setting? from some additional reading it appears this influences the recommend conductor length from the drive to the motor as well, it appears there may be advantages to lower vs higher, but when one installs a drive “out of the box” what would the default be and who or why would one change it?
YOU decide the CF setting based on what you need to do, IF anything. The best practice is to leave it as low as you can live with, it's better for the drive and better for the circuit. If someone insists on putting the whining sound into the dogs hearing range, you must explain to them that it means buying a bigger drive for that motor and de-rating it. Besides the noise issue, if you are trying to get extremely precise torque control of that motor for a very specialized machine, increasing the CF increases the accuracy of that torque control.

As to the conductor length, that has to do with a phenomenon called "standing wave generation" that takes place in the conductors between the drive and motor. The high speed DC pulses in the conductors have the effect of making them act like capacitors, storing a charge. That charge represents a new voltage and it travels along the conductors until it meets a change in impedance, usually the terminations, at which point it "reflects" and goes back the other way. But on its way, it hits another wave and adds to it. Think of ripples in a pond after throwing in a rock, then throw in a second rock and watch how the ripples meet and amplify on one another in some spots. That's what happens in the conductors. That becomes a wave that moves along the conductors and the cross points can reach voltages that are as much as 3x the DC voltage. So on a 480V drive, you can see voltage spikes from those waves exceeding 2000V under certain conditions. Standard (old) motor insulation was barely 2x the AC voltage, so 1000V on old motors. That's why old motors rarely last long on VFDs. The longer your cables are, the more capacitance there can be, so the worse this gets. But if you increase the CF, then it takes even LESS distance before you get into trouble. That's why you saw the references to shortening the motor conductor length with increasing the CF and it's important to pay heed to that.
 
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__dan

Senior Member
Also when looking at the basic wiring schematic what is the difference between the source and sink control inputs?

Source or sink indicates a DC only control circuit with bipolar transistors at the circuit inputs and / or outputs. It will not work with AC. And if the sensor input devices also have the bipolar transistor output type, polarity of the control voltage also matters there for control power to flow when the circuit closes.

The bipolar transistor is built very similar to the way a diode is built. DC power only flows in one direction. Source and sink refer to either NPN or PNP type bipolar transistors, so the DC voltage polarity must be correct for it to work.

The control power would be (typ) 24 VDC. Source or sink does not indicate where the control power comes from, either onboard from the drive or externally and using the drive only as a receiving circuit.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
I'll give it a laymans attempt
Yaskawa-2_0.gif


the ref freq (fr) is set by the vfd controller (based on a manual input, control pid, ramp function, etc.) it is the vfd output freq
the carrier freq (fc) is determined by the vfd designer, typically the lower the less thd, but the less accurate sugnal, they find a happy medium

the DC bus output is a pwm signal generated mathematically based on the area under fc BELOW the reference
(this basically determines the switching or 'on' duration of the SS device(s))
the greater the area, the wider the pulse, and the inverse, the less fc area under the fr, the shorter the pulse duration
the pulse is always DC bus voltage (~1.35 x Vll / 2, eg, 480 vac, the dc is +/- 325, needs to be bipolar for the reference + and - swing)
when smoothed thru an L load it resembles a sine wave

this is a very basic explanation
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
The output going to the motor is a series of DC pulses of a uniform potential
Thanks for your posts, I always enjoy reading them. Do I have the following correct?

If the DC bus in the VFD is at Vmax volts, then the output voltage waveform is piecewise constant, taking on only the values -Vmax, 0, and +Vmax volts. The resulting waveform if locally averaged at each point (over a sampling time of several periods of the carrier) would be roughly sinusoidal. And the motor, being an inductive load, responds to the choppy voltage waveform similarly to the way it would respond to the locally averaged waveform, resulting in a current waveform that is roughly sinusoidal.

Is there any benefit to making a VFD that would also use a bus at, say, Vmax/2, so that it could produce a waveform that was less choppy?

Cheers, Wayne
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
One key parameter I failed to mention is the modulation index m
it is the ratio m = magnitude fr / magnitude fc
usually in the 0.8 to 0.9 range
too high you might have fr > fc and miss info or saturate
too low you lose resolution the min/max ratio gets tighter
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
That's because inside of the motor, the steel parts of the stator core are made of stacked plates that are bolted/riveted together (on small motors, welded together on larger ones).
Welded? This is off topic somewhat, but I thought the laminations had to be insulated from one another?
 
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