quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
I have always hated the phantom voltage thing. To me there is no such thing it is just that you cant explain properly something you dont understand.
phantom voltage
- Thread starter Rattlesnake308
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brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Is it the term you dislike or the fact that this phenomenon exist?
All items have to be identified by some name otherwise how would we know what we are talking about? There does need to be a specific term utilized for this phenomenon and it needs to be in standard dictionary utilized by electricians such as the IEEE Dictionary.
There was a show about modern words that make the dictionary such as gridlock and where these terms originate. The people (and sometimes companies) that come up with these terms sometimes push for them to make them into the public vocabulary and dictionary.
Having said that I push for magical mystical electricity in lieu of phantom voltage.
Last edited:
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Apparition Mode Electromagnetic Force
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
had a phantom voltage problem today. homeowner had her "friend" hook up light fixtures in her house i rewired 7 months ago. all the circuits fed into a big tangle box in the attic all circuits were properly wired and working. the HO calls up and said we wired the house wrong and wants us to fix it for free.
her friend used some voltage tester and said the neutral wires were live. i knew this wasnt true because i tested everything when i was finished. i go there and test it using a wiggy. wiggy doesnt read anything. i put my hi impedance fluke 117 DMM on the neutral to ground and it had 14 volts. put my wiggy in paralell with the DMM and volts went away. put a light bulb in a rubber pigtail in paralell and voltage went away. i broke out the T+pro. the T+pro turns on at greater than 10 volts. i use this tester to test doorbell circuits. i put the tester N to G and had nothing
i checked all connections in the box. there wasnt many just about 8 romex cables. all grounds were tied together nice and tight. all neutrals were seperated and all ungroundeds went to the right circuits.
i used the loz function on the 117 and had the same results
her friend used some voltage tester and said the neutral wires were live. i knew this wasnt true because i tested everything when i was finished. i go there and test it using a wiggy. wiggy doesnt read anything. i put my hi impedance fluke 117 DMM on the neutral to ground and it had 14 volts. put my wiggy in paralell with the DMM and volts went away. put a light bulb in a rubber pigtail in paralell and voltage went away. i broke out the T+pro. the T+pro turns on at greater than 10 volts. i use this tester to test doorbell circuits. i put the tester N to G and had nothing
i checked all connections in the box. there wasnt many just about 8 romex cables. all grounds were tied together nice and tight. all neutrals were seperated and all ungroundeds went to the right circuits.
i used the loz function on the 117 and had the same results
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
i checked the ground connection in the panel and it was tight. i removed the grounds and untwisted them then i had 50 volts with the DMM and nothing with the loz and t+pro and voltage went away with the lightbulb test.
i twisted the grounds back together with my lineman pliers and tightened the wire nut as tight as i could. i still had the 14 volts. the total run back to the panel was about 50-75 feet
im thinking that if the ground was loose you would still read zero volts since there is no way back to the source at all. if there was a loose connection that could add resistance to the circuit and you will read higher than 1 volt or 14 volts even with a lo impedance tester
i twisted the grounds back together with my lineman pliers and tightened the wire nut as tight as i could. i still had the 14 volts. the total run back to the panel was about 50-75 feet
im thinking that if the ground was loose you would still read zero volts since there is no way back to the source at all. if there was a loose connection that could add resistance to the circuit and you will read higher than 1 volt or 14 volts even with a lo impedance tester
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
090601-2002 EST
electricalperson:
You have a problem with a ground or neutral somewhere.
If all grounds are connected together at the main panel, and the same for all the neutrals, then I would suggest there is no way you would see 14 V EGC to neutral anywhere with a high impedance meter.
With a high impedance voltmeter measure the voltage between the ground bus and the neutral bus in the main panel. This probably should less than 1 millivolt.
Mount a temporary receptacle at the main panel and connect EGC to the ground bus, and neutral to the neutral bus. Plug a long extension cord into this outlet. The voltage at the end of the extension cord between EGC and neutral with the cord anywhere you go should be not much greater than what you read directly at the main panel.
Go to various outlets and measure the voltage from either or both EGC and neutral of the extension cord to neutral of the outlet being check, and separately to the EGC of the said outlet.
This should allow you to find the circuit that has an open.
.
electricalperson:
You have a problem with a ground or neutral somewhere.
If all grounds are connected together at the main panel, and the same for all the neutrals, then I would suggest there is no way you would see 14 V EGC to neutral anywhere with a high impedance meter.
With a high impedance voltmeter measure the voltage between the ground bus and the neutral bus in the main panel. This probably should less than 1 millivolt.
Mount a temporary receptacle at the main panel and connect EGC to the ground bus, and neutral to the neutral bus. Plug a long extension cord into this outlet. The voltage at the end of the extension cord between EGC and neutral with the cord anywhere you go should be not much greater than what you read directly at the main panel.
Go to various outlets and measure the voltage from either or both EGC and neutral of the extension cord to neutral of the outlet being check, and separately to the EGC of the said outlet.
This should allow you to find the circuit that has an open.
.
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
the wire went all the way back to the junction box and spliced to a switch leg. all the neutrals for the 14/3 were tied together good and tight and grounds were tight. i wasnt sharing any neutrals with other MWBC. the service was brand new and i moved the panel earlier before testing. i made sure every wire was torqued down.
am i missing anything?
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
there was a load on the MWBC. a couple lights and a power strip. i had 120 volts to ground off the hot when i turned the switch on 120 to neutral. i used a wiggy. i feel like im horribly wrong even if all my tests prooved phantom voltage the load in paralell with the DMM cancelled out all voltage readings N to G. had 0 volts.
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
REAL phantom voltge
REAL phantom voltge
i opened up a 3 way in my house and had 33 volts on the red wire and nothing with the wiggy or loz on the 117 hopefully i dont sound like an idiot again
REAL phantom voltge
i opened up a 3 way in my house and had 33 volts on the red wire and nothing with the wiggy or loz on the 117 hopefully i dont sound like an idiot again
RichB
Senior Member
- Location
- Tacoma, Wa
- Occupation
- Electrician/Electrical Inspector
Learned this in the Navy--Lesson never forgotten
Learned this in the Navy--Lesson never forgotten
We had motor operated butterfly valves for the flight deck fire fighting system. They would just turn on all by themselves. We fought it for 2 years--even to the point of getting a tingle at times----with the breakers off and fuses pulled. Went into the yards for overhaul and were replacing the valves with solenoid operated valves. Obne of the civilian workers got the tingle and we were all trying to figure out where that 120VAC was coming from. One old timer took his flashlight apart and put that little 3 watt lamp across the line--imagine our suprise when it didn't even glow, much less explode. Then he taught all of us about ghost voltages--Saved me several times knowing this.
Learned this in the Navy--Lesson never forgotten
We had motor operated butterfly valves for the flight deck fire fighting system. They would just turn on all by themselves. We fought it for 2 years--even to the point of getting a tingle at times----with the breakers off and fuses pulled. Went into the yards for overhaul and were replacing the valves with solenoid operated valves. Obne of the civilian workers got the tingle and we were all trying to figure out where that 120VAC was coming from. One old timer took his flashlight apart and put that little 3 watt lamp across the line--imagine our suprise when it didn't even glow, much less explode. Then he taught all of us about ghost voltages--Saved me several times knowing this.
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