Piece Work

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charlie b

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Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
I have been asked by a member, who wishes to remain anonymous, to post the following question. The member is a licensed electrician. The member is not seeking assistance in a legal dispute, but rather is seeking information on how things are done in other areas of the country. Therefore, I judge that this member's request is within the rules of the Forum. Here is the question:
The following question is mainly directed at Electrical Contractors on this site, but I hope everyone will contribute their opinions on the following question: Is piecework legal? I was looking at this site and kind of came to the conclusion that regardless of how much a blue collar electrician earns per year, overtime must be paid. This might not fully mesh with the pay/employment practices involved with piecework, and I was curious if anyone knows how this is supposed to work according to the IRS and DoL?

It seems that most licensing systems in many states would say that a non-master could not be sub-contracted by a master electrician to complete work as a subcontractor by IRS standards. But I am a lowly electrician with very little knowledge about laws and regulations and what have you. From the outside looking in, it almost looks like a system to get employees to work many hours a week with no overtime paid, in order to maximize company profits while creating the illusion of wealth to the worker, since they take home a large paycheck, they might not notice they'd take home the same amount of money if regular overtime had been paid. I have no desire to stir up trouble with my employer, but I am curious what the members here at this Forum believe about this topic.

Thank you for your time.
 
Re: Piece Work

If it's not legal, just about every trade except electrical is breaking the law. You don't see it so much in commercial, but single and mult-family work, it's very common. Plumbers, HVAC, brick, roofing, sheetrock, tile, are some examples of piece work. Some trades may not do piece-work per-se, but rather, sub-contract. That way, overtime, insurance, taxes, are out of the contractor's hands. I know that single family electrical is subbed for rough in and trim out. That's why it's so competitive. They pay a flat fee to a rough in crew (mostly Mexicans)so there cost is fixed. Those guys will work all week, all night, and all weekend, collect a check, then move to the next one.
 
Re: Piece Work

I have done piece work for fixture change outs, but paid my guys by the hour for their work.

It's called unit pricing.

I have never had my guys do piece work though.

When you have a piece work job you have to watch the labor very closely.
 
Re: Piece Work

Since I posted this question on behalf of another member, I feel free to offer my own 3 cents worth (time and a half :D ).

DISCLAIMER
I am not a lawyer, and I am not offering legal advice. What follows is what I have learned from past employment experiences. I may be completely wrong, in what I am about to say. If you think that your employer has treated you unfairly, you need to find yourself a lawyer.
I am unfamiliar with the notion of piece work myself, as it pertains to the worker. I can easily see an electrical contracting company getting a contract that is based on a price per unit installed. But that is different from the same company paying its workers on the basis of dollars per unit installed.

I have been involved in setting company policies for wages, salaries, bonuses, and other compensation. What little I can offer (to the member who asked this question or to anyone else with a similar interest) is to ask back a rhetorical question of my own: Are you or are you not an employee of the company?

If you are not an "employee," then you are some manner of contractor to the company. That is sensitive territory. The IRS takes an interest in companies that claim to be paying "sub-contractors" who are really employees. I gather that a company can pay less money (lower taxes) to the IRS in a sub-contractor relationship than in an employer-employee relationship. So they have a set of (I think) very clear and simple "tests" to determine if the sub-contractor should really be treated as an employee of the company. I'll not offer any advice, nor even give a link to those IRS rules, but they should be easy enough to find.

If you are an employee, then you must necessarily be paid on either a salary or a wage basis. Those are the "conversational English" terms. The legal terms (as mentioned in the article you can read from the link in the original post) are "exempt" and "non-exempt."

A "salaried" worker is exempt from the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). A salaried person is paid the same, regardless of the number of hours worked. If you work 40 hours or 80 hours in a week, the company still only has to pay you the agreed salary. But there is a "catch." Some years back, I read about some engineering companies that were severely caught by that "catch." If you work only 36 hours in one week, the company still has to pay you the same salary. If you choose to take the other 4 hours as vacation time, or if you take it as sick time, the company will probably not be concerned. But if you don't use vacation or sick time, the company does not have the option of docking your salary for the "missing" four hours. If they are not happy about you taking time away from work, they can consider firing you. But they still have to pay you the agreed salary for that week.

The "catch" that caught the engineering companies several years back was that they did dock the pay of several junior engineers for time taken away from work, when the engineers did not have any remaining vacation or sick time. It was brought to court. The court decreed that those companies could not call those specific engineers "exempt," because they were not being paid on a salary basis. As a result, those persons, and every other person in the company at the same or lower job level, had to get back-pay at time and a half for all the overtime they had ever recorded while employed at that company. :eek: :eek:

Finally, if a person is paid on a wage basis, that person is not exempt from FLSA. If you work less than 40 hours, you get paid for less than 40 hours. If you work overtime, you get paid at time and a half for the hours over 40. The "time and a half" is not open to negotiations. If it takes you 50 hours to complete a job that your boss thought should have only taken you 40, then the boss has to pay you for 55 hours. He can then fire you for being inefficient. But he can't just pay you for the 40 hours he thought the job should take.

One more tidbit: If the company wants to offer compensatory time off, in lieu of overtime pay, that may be allowable. But the number of hours they give you as compensatory time off must be based on time and a half. You work 10 extra hours this week, they give you 15 hours off next week. Here again, the "time and a half" is not open to negotiations.
 
Re: Piece Work

Piece work pay for electricians, as the only compensation system, is considered by members of my local association be be illegal. There are bonuses to be had from certain contractors, over and above the normal hourly wage, for meeting production goals on a per hour or per day or per job basis. This is sort of like piece work, only different. There is at least one contractor that pays an obscenely low hourly wage (but still above minimum wage) with a really nice peice work adder. These guys do okay in the end. If you're working half sick or otherwise aren't "on your game", you make your minimum wage pay.

I personally find good electricians, and even good electrical laborers, too hard to come by to monkey with the pay like that, though. You give a guy a decent hourly wage, then he knows how to plan his budget and his life. There's enough stuff to worry about without spending an hour a day poking the calculator to try to figure out how much you're going to be making that paycheck.

[ October 24, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
 
Re: Piece Work

It seems to me that piecework would only be legitimate if you knew exactly what the job would entail. For example, if you had a crew wiring new houses that were all identical to each other, piecework might make sense, since there would be no surprises. In essence, each "piece" is the same.

But as soon as you deviate from this, every "piece" is different in some way, and it's hard to know in advance how much time it will take for each "piece." If a worker is paid for piecework under those circumstances, he's going to be seriously tempted to cut corners anytime he runs into anything that costs him extra time.

I only do remodeling/old work, and every single job I do is different. As it is, I'm guessing every time I do an estimate, but since I'm a one-man show, it's all on me.
 
Re: Piece Work

From an owners perspective I feel there are too many legal issues regarding the IRS as well as Wage & Hour Laws. I won't get into the legal do's & don'ts as I am not a lawyer and would only be able to speak for my state. However, there really is no need to pay piece work in my opinion. I pay by the hour but watch, track and post billable efficiency of each employee. They are expected to generate (or complete) a minimum amount of revenue each day, week & month to cover their expence. They know what that number is. If they exceed there billable efficiency then they get a bonus. It's fair, legal and simple to administer & track. It weeds out the slackers and rewards the hustler. Quality and call backs are tied to the bonus.
 
Re: Piece Work

As I understand it, you can pay people any way you want to. truck drivers get paid by the mile w/o any OT. You drive X miles, you get X cents per mile.

Lots of people work on piece work basis. Nothing illegal at all.

HOWEVER, if you pay people by the hour, OT pay is not optional if they are actual employees of your company.

Independant contractors are not employees.

The government is very leery of people claiming to be independant contractors for some reason, even though it is often to the worker's benefit to be classified that way.

Normally if you pay by piece work, you still have to pay OT. the government calculates this in a very odd way, so it is best if you do not allow employees to work more than 40 hours/week if they are on a piece work basis.

A very few employees are exempt from federal rules requiring OT pay. Many states require OT pay for these employees anyway.
 
Re: Piece Work

Originally posted by petersonra:
As I understand it, you can pay people any way you want to. truck drivers get paid by the mile w/o any OT. You drive X miles, you get X cents per mile.
I am not disagreeing but I am curious how this works with minimum wage laws? :confused:

Personally I would never work by the piece. To many variables effect the rate at which an electrician can work.

Is the stock in the room I am working, is it on the same floor, is it in the building or out at a remote trailer?

Are there accessibility issues, height, confined space, security check points etc?

Is there a definitive set of prints or is the job a 'work in progress'?
 
Re: Piece Work

I have been hearing from contractors in Florida that workers' comp and other insurance regulators are cracking down on piece work operations. If the contractor does not provide an accurate account for hours worked by employees, liability and rates can't be determined.

A few of the contractors have claimed they are now required to provide an hourly rate as a base with the piece rate added as a "bonus" based on performance. They claim this is ther only way they can comply with Florida laws and that every company will eventually have to do the same thing.
 
Re: Piece Work

Originally posted by petersonra: the minimum wage is the floor, even if you work on a piece work basis.
Many of the people who wait on tables are paid less than minimum wage, as their base wage, under the expectation that tips will bring them above minimum wage. I do not know how that can be considered legal, but I have no doubt that it happens.
 
Re: Piece Work

Originally posted by charlie b:
Many of the people who wait on tables are paid less than minimum wage, as their base wage, under the expectation that tips will bring them above minimum wage. I do not know how that can be considered legal, but I have no doubt that it happens.
In this state there is a second 'minimum' wage for tipped employees.
 
Re: Piece Work

I looked it up and it is pretty ugly. :eek:

1. What is the minimum wage in Massachusetts?

The Massachusetts minimum wage for most employees is $6.75 per hour.

2. Can tipped employees be paid a different minimum wage?

Yes, the minimum wage for tipped employees (employees who receive more than $20 a month in tips) is $2.63 per hour. However, for tipped employees to be paid this rate, they must be informed of the law, must receive at least minimum wage when tips and wages are combined, and all tips must be retained by the employee or distributed through a valid tip-pooling arrangement. Tip-pooling arrangements must conform with the requirements of M.G.L. c. 149, ?152A
 
Re: Piece Work

They pay a flat fee to a rough in crew (mostly Mexicans)so there cost is fixed. Those guys will work all week, all night, and all weekend, collect a check, then move to the next one.
That's funny :D , and you got that right we Mexicans do put out the work :cool: .
 
Re: Piece Work

Originally posted by cdslotz:
They pay a flat fee to a rough in crew (mostly Mexicans)so there cost is fixed. Those guys will work all week, all night, and all weekend, collect a check, then move to the next one.
I am always amazed when some people denigrate other people for being willing to work hard and long hours to bring themselves and their families up the economic ladder.
 
Re: Piece Work

willing to work hard and long hours to bring themselves and their families up the economic ladder.
That sounds like me, been there, done that, and still going there and doing that. In the words of Hank Williams Jr. " and they nearly broke me with high price of beef" only the beef is with big oil, there high price of gas, and there $28 billion profit. Its a lovley day in Texas and a big howdy to you too sir! :cool:
 
Re: Piece Work

I checked out a company here in Tampa FL that paid piece work.Price was set for rough or trim depending on the model.Sounded ok but could quickly figure out there game.If you ever put down that you worked more than 40 then your history.You are there employee to cover the insurance and licensing but part of deal is you supply your own truck and tools,gas,ladders, ect.When i asked to take a copy of a few prints home to do the math work i was told no.In short it was like bidding a job in 5 minutes,no thanks.He told me how much some made for the week.When i asked how many hours it was always reported under 40.What happens is they work 6 long days to get that amount but claim 40.Loop holes is what they were about.Large check but in reality if they worked same number of hours my the hour they been better off.Thankfully i was tipped off that it was not a good deal in the end.Wont say there name but it starts with an M
 
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