Plans vs Specifications
- Thread starter gmreynol
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Plans vs Specifications
You can not ever violate the codes regardless if the prints on specs say to do so.
Most contracts have language written that requires the most stringent sections to be followed.
If the specs say 12 AWG but the prints say 10 AWG you have to use 10 AWG.
If the specs say receptacles shall be placed every 6' but the plans show 12' you must place them at 6'.
In general the contractor does not get to choose the paper that that is easier or less costly to follow.
You can not ever violate the codes regardless if the prints on specs say to do so.
Most contracts have language written that requires the most stringent sections to be followed.
If the specs say 12 AWG but the prints say 10 AWG you have to use 10 AWG.
If the specs say receptacles shall be placed every 6' but the plans show 12' you must place them at 6'.
In general the contractor does not get to choose the paper that that is easier or less costly to follow.
dduffee260
Senior Member
- Location
- Texas
Re: Plans vs Specifications
I have always been informed that specs override plans. Architects and engineers a lot of times will make a mistake on the plans but then have a clause in the specs that say something like " in the event there is an error on the plans it is the contractors responsibility that this be a complete and proper operation" or something of that nature. If I see a mistake on the plans before the bid date then I try and get it corrected via an addendum before the bid date if it is something that is going to make a lot of difference. Once we had about 16 floor boxes set up for a school, exactly where the plans had shown the floor boxes. The architect dropped by the day before the floor slab pour, then told the superintendent that the locations of the boxes would not work for the school there. They needed to be relocated. The superintendent then told the architect that would probably require a change order. About an hour later the architect called the superintendent back and said " per specifications, all boxes must be verified with the architect before installation". We had to move the boxes that day for free. So after that I called the architect several times saying is this where you want this box. He then ask me why I was calling him all the time. I told him for verification. About two months later he retired. But it was his time. So now we always try and cover our bases with written documentation.
I have always been informed that specs override plans. Architects and engineers a lot of times will make a mistake on the plans but then have a clause in the specs that say something like " in the event there is an error on the plans it is the contractors responsibility that this be a complete and proper operation" or something of that nature. If I see a mistake on the plans before the bid date then I try and get it corrected via an addendum before the bid date if it is something that is going to make a lot of difference. Once we had about 16 floor boxes set up for a school, exactly where the plans had shown the floor boxes. The architect dropped by the day before the floor slab pour, then told the superintendent that the locations of the boxes would not work for the school there. They needed to be relocated. The superintendent then told the architect that would probably require a change order. About an hour later the architect called the superintendent back and said " per specifications, all boxes must be verified with the architect before installation". We had to move the boxes that day for free. So after that I called the architect several times saying is this where you want this box. He then ask me why I was calling him all the time. I told him for verification. About two months later he retired. But it was his time. So now we always try and cover our bases with written documentation.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Plans vs Specifications
If it is not that should be the first RFI you send in.
I would sometimes, not say always, this should be spelled out in clear terms in the contract documents.
If it is not that should be the first RFI you send in.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Code 1, Specs 2, Plans 3.
In my jurisdiction, plans are stamped "reviewed" and are not necessarily "approved". The code overrides any specs or plans if not in compliance. Many times, "as builts" need to be submitted post start of construction to match actual installations.
[ January 21, 2006, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
Code 1, Specs 2, Plans 3.
In my jurisdiction, plans are stamped "reviewed" and are not necessarily "approved". The code overrides any specs or plans if not in compliance. Many times, "as builts" need to be submitted post start of construction to match actual installations.
[ January 21, 2006, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
gmreynol
Member
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Thank you for your replies, we are bidding a project that shows branch circuits ran in mc, but the specifications state type nm "romex" can be used. Wiring in romex could save a substantial amount of money to the builder. The project is multifamily so type nm makes sense, type 5a construction.
Thank you for your replies, we are bidding a project that shows branch circuits ran in mc, but the specifications state type nm "romex" can be used. Wiring in romex could save a substantial amount of money to the builder. The project is multifamily so type nm makes sense, type 5a construction.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Plans vs Specifications
IF the contract documents have the same wording I typically see.
I will see if I can find what I usually see and post it shortly.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
IF the contract documents have the same wording I typically see.
I will see if I can find what I usually see and post it shortly.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Here is what I see in a lot of our specs.
Here is what I see in a lot of our specs.
jim sutton
Senior Member
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Sorry but there is no such thing as "normal". The contract is what it is. Every job has a different contract and should be read.
As for the NM vs MC issue, you should send in an RFI now or qualify your bid.
Sorry but there is no such thing as "normal". The contract is what it is. Every job has a different contract and should be read.
As for the NM vs MC issue, you should send in an RFI now or qualify your bid.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Speaking of following the "specs", I've aggravated more than one GC by requesting written authorization to proceed with a change order. They are always saying "just do it and we'll get the paper to follow". The specs and contracts more often than not say "no additional work is to be performed without prior written authorization".
They (GC, owner, etc.) really get ticked off when you won't budge from this point.
Speaking of following the "specs", I've aggravated more than one GC by requesting written authorization to proceed with a change order. They are always saying "just do it and we'll get the paper to follow". The specs and contracts more often than not say "no additional work is to be performed without prior written authorization".
They (GC, owner, etc.) really get ticked off when you won't budge from this point.
gmreynol
Member
Re: Plans vs Specifications
I had an incident once where we took over a multifamily development. We wired numeruos units exactly like the previous contractor did. 12-2 nm for kitchens, dining... and 14-2 awg for everthing else. Our guys got to the point we no longer needed the plans as reference. We started with another builder who was building the same units, franchise thing. There was never a panel schedule believe it or not, just notes on the bottom of the plans stating breaker sizes. We knew there was one typo which said general lighting 20 amp. Well after many buildings completed the builder saw that typo note on the plans and wanted us to remove all of the 15 amp circuits. All the units were past inspection, drywalled and painted. we told him it was a typo, he did not believe us. He caused an uproar through the franchise. People every thought there buildings were wired wrong. The only thing that saved us was the specs, it was crystal clear. He got fired.
I had an incident once where we took over a multifamily development. We wired numeruos units exactly like the previous contractor did. 12-2 nm for kitchens, dining... and 14-2 awg for everthing else. Our guys got to the point we no longer needed the plans as reference. We started with another builder who was building the same units, franchise thing. There was never a panel schedule believe it or not, just notes on the bottom of the plans stating breaker sizes. We knew there was one typo which said general lighting 20 amp. Well after many buildings completed the builder saw that typo note on the plans and wanted us to remove all of the 15 amp circuits. All the units were past inspection, drywalled and painted. we told him it was a typo, he did not believe us. He caused an uproar through the franchise. People every thought there buildings were wired wrong. The only thing that saved us was the specs, it was crystal clear. He got fired.
jim sutton
Senior Member
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Youre right about no contract when bidding. But you asked which had more weight by "law or contract".
My only point is that all contracts are different.
Sorry if I seemed like a SA
Youre right about no contract when bidding. But you asked which had more weight by "law or contract".
My only point is that all contracts are different.
Sorry if I seemed like a SA
gmreynol
Member
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Sry jim I forgot my original post lol, Yes I do agree some contracts are different and yes some will be descriptive concerning the specs and the plans. I have a had some pretty vague contracts though, but we try to qualify as much as possible trying to cover our butts. I guess my questions are more about bidding the job by the plans when the specs are conflicting.thanks again
Sry jim I forgot my original post lol, Yes I do agree some contracts are different and yes some will be descriptive concerning the specs and the plans. I have a had some pretty vague contracts though, but we try to qualify as much as possible trying to cover our butts. I guess my questions are more about bidding the job by the plans when the specs are conflicting.thanks again
Re: Plans vs Specifications
Every project that I have estimated and worked on, it is generally accepted and agreed that spec's supercede prints. That being said it probably won't help if the dispute goes to courtand it is not in writing. Engineers will never admit to or accept responsibility for their errors (sorry engineers but it has not happened in my 35 years in the industry) So, as has been stated earlier first rfi should be the to set the priority spec vs. prints or qualify it in writing.
Every project that I have estimated and worked on, it is generally accepted and agreed that spec's supercede prints. That being said it probably won't help if the dispute goes to courtand it is not in writing. Engineers will never admit to or accept responsibility for their errors (sorry engineers but it has not happened in my 35 years in the industry) So, as has been stated earlier first rfi should be the to set the priority spec vs. prints or qualify it in writing.
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Plans vs Specifications
always get it in writing before proceeding with a change. make it your company policy. a package of speed memos(the three copy type) only costs a couple of bucks. they have saved my butt a few times. ya, the generals don't like them -- but if you start off using them in the beginning of the job -- you will have little problem getting paid and it will force the general to follow up with the owner/arch. on change orders. i had an engineering firm try to get me to make a $26k change due to their mistake! eventually,after court and attorneys fees, they paid me through their "errors and admission" insurance -- but they sure didn't want to... i once worked for a contractor who taught me about "speed memos". he would requesition for estimated extras along with his monthly draws. the "estimated extras" section would be accompanied with copies of the signed "speed memeos". and in his original job proposal this was spelled out in his payment schedual.....
always get it in writing before proceeding with a change. make it your company policy. a package of speed memos(the three copy type) only costs a couple of bucks. they have saved my butt a few times. ya, the generals don't like them -- but if you start off using them in the beginning of the job -- you will have little problem getting paid and it will force the general to follow up with the owner/arch. on change orders. i had an engineering firm try to get me to make a $26k change due to their mistake! eventually,after court and attorneys fees, they paid me through their "errors and admission" insurance -- but they sure didn't want to... i once worked for a contractor who taught me about "speed memos". he would requesition for estimated extras along with his monthly draws. the "estimated extras" section would be accompanied with copies of the signed "speed memeos". and in his original job proposal this was spelled out in his payment schedual.....
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Plans vs Specifications
There are several issues here.
Legal requirements such as local codes take precedance over private contracts.
The spec and plans are usually incorporated into the contract, and most good contracts and specs specify how to resolve any conflicts. Often it is a simple one line sentence that says the more stringent requirement would hold.
Your best protection is to do a fairly detailed proposal and get your proposal incorporated into the P.O. rather than having the P.O. incorporate the plans and specs. Not all contractors will do this, but if there are serious supply issues, you need to protect yourself, and you can often make the case with the contractor up front, rather than after the fact.
There are several issues here.
Legal requirements such as local codes take precedance over private contracts.
The spec and plans are usually incorporated into the contract, and most good contracts and specs specify how to resolve any conflicts. Often it is a simple one line sentence that says the more stringent requirement would hold.
Your best protection is to do a fairly detailed proposal and get your proposal incorporated into the P.O. rather than having the P.O. incorporate the plans and specs. Not all contractors will do this, but if there are serious supply issues, you need to protect yourself, and you can often make the case with the contractor up front, rather than after the fact.
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