Please tell me I am not crazy...

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Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

So, by now we know that you're not crazy. Your electrician and inspector are though. :eek:
I'm wondering what else the electrician may have done which could pose a serious hazard?
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by charlie b:
Originally posted by jstjohnz: They are interpreting 300.3.B like this: If the conductors *were* in a raceway, gutter, etc, etc, then the conductors of any circuit would have to be contained within the *SAME* raceway, etc, but that this section doesn't specifically require that all conductors be in a cable or raceway.
Yes it does. They don't get the option of adding an "if ? then" statement that does not appear in the code. You don't have to look through all approved wiring methods, hoping to show that this is not among them. The article says that all conductors shall be in the same raceway. End of discussion. Chapter closed. They are wrong.
I am also convinced that they are wrong, but I don't think that 300.3.B alone is enough. For example, knob and tube is not in a raceway, it is not listed as one of the exceptions to 300.3.(B), yet it is still permitted in some situations.

-jim-
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

if they want to allow it and pass it then get the install on pics and writing,also include the aprorpiate article from the NEC :roll:
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by jstjohnz: For example, knob and tube is not in a raceway, it is not listed as one of the exceptions to 300.3.(B), yet it is still permitted in some situations.
I thought (I'm too lazy - - - - - - I mean busy - - - - - - to look it up) that K&T is allowed to remain, if it is already there, but cannot be used for new installations. Or do I mistake logic for rule again? ;)
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

As I said above it could be used to extend an existing system or otherwise by special permission and I don't think either applies in this case. Either of these provisions would prohibit this kind of installation right there without even getting into spacing and supports, etc.

-Hal
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

why doesnt 300.3 (A) apply.

if they are single conductors. then they need to use the appropriate wireing method.

edit to add a dot behind 300

[ December 15, 2005, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: jbwhite ]
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

300.3(A) requires that single conductors specified in table 310.13 shall only be installed where part of a recognized wiring method of Chapter 3. These single conductors obviously aren't Messenger Supported Wiring. Open Wiring on Insulators doesn't apply since this isn't industrial or agricultural (no mother-in-law jokes please). So, that only leaves us with Concealed Knob-and-Tube Wiring. It's permitted for extensions of existing installations or by special permission. Since it doesn't appear that this is an extension of an existing installation, that one's out as well. That only leaves the possibility of special permission.

Let's just assume for a minute that the local AHJ has granted special permission in this instance. The requirements of article 394 will have to be met. Just a few of the high points for our discussion. The conductors must be separated from contact with wood members they pass through by noncombustible tubes or bushings. A minimum of 1" of clearance must be maintained between the conductor and any surface it passes over with noncombustible supports. 3" of spacing must be maintained between conductors. Any of this resemble the installation for your mother-in-law? Also, if the attic space or wall are insulated and the wiring is within the insulation, then this wiring method is not permitted. I'm just guessing here but I doubt that this installation meets any of these requirements.

Also, since we have to assume special permission here, let's look at that. If, indeed, special permission has been granted, that special permission must be in writing from the AHJ.

Considering all of this. I would take pictures of the installation to the inspector and ask for a copy of the written special permission for the contractor to use Concealed Knob-and-Tube Wiring. If he is unable (more likely unwilling) to provide you with it, I'd start working my way up the chain of command. How far you'll have to go depends on how things are set up. When I inspected in Northern Indiana, my city had an Electrical Administrative Board that reviewed not only complaints against contractors, but also questionable decisions by the inspector. You'll have to find out how your local jurisdiction is set up. Regardless, of how you have to go about it, do not let this go.

It's been a lot of years, but the inspectors I knew in that area were pretty good. Are you by chance in one of the areas that has one or two "I-do-it-all" inspectors? Usually a retired carpenter, police officer, or fireman. We had some of those in the Northern part of the state. I can't imagine why an inspector would allow this type of installation.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

must be my insecurity.... i mentiond 300.3 A before and seemed it was ignored and the thread keep going on 300.3 B.

i was lost, cause if no metal raceway, i didnt see the importance of 300.3 B
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by jbwhite:. . . cause if no metal raceway, I didn't see the importance of 300.3 B
My view is that 300.3(B) is all you need to throw a flag on this play. I interpret it as saying both "you need a raceway" and "all conductors must be in the same raceway." It is the first part of this that the local inspectors have, IMHO, interpreted incorrectly.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Interpreted incorrectly is putting it mildly!!! Does your area have a board of appeals or board of supervisers? I would take the issue above the contractor and above the " inspectors".
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

I believe you need to start back at Section 300.1, the Scope statement for the entire Article:
300.1(A) All Wiring Installations This article covers wiring methods for all wiring installations unless modified by other articles.
As stated in 300.1, unless a wiring method is specifically described somewhere in the Code, it is prohibited. Nowhere in the NEC is the method described in the OP recognized, therefore it is prohibited.

Section 300.3(A) is specifically directed toward applications of conductors in Table 310.13 and to wiring methods in Chapter 3; i.e., Articles 300 to 398. Article 310 describes conductors themselves. ?Recognized wiring methods? are Articles 312 to 398.

There is noting in the rest of Article 300 that directly permits the method described in the OP; therefore, the wires must be installed by a method described in Articles 312 to 398.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

In case anyone thinks of throwing in the "permissive code" argument, the code does not specifically prohibit using strips of aluminum foil as conductors, but we acknowledge that it's not acceptable.

Don't we??? :eek:
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by LarryFine:
In case anyone thinks of throwing in the "permissive code" argument, the code does not specifically prohibit using strips of aluminum foil as conductors, but we acknowledge that it's not acceptable.
But Larry it is a permissive code.

And actually the code does specifically prohibit using strips of aluminum foil as conductors.

Check out conductor requirements throughout Article 310. :)
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

The Code has both "proscriptive" and "prohibitive" language.

?Proscriptive? says ?You shall do it this way;? essentially, that prohibits any other method ? even if it ?works.? ?Prohibitive? says ?You shall not do it that way;? essentially, that permits any other method that works. ?Exceptions? are added to modify the language.

As Bob (iwire) pointed out, Art 310 describes every conductor permitted for general wiring ? it doesn?t describe aluminum foil. And you must take the Article as a whole - not just a scrap here or there taken out of context. Aluminum foil may be appropriate in some equipment not in the Scope of the NEC.

Edit corrected grammer and spelling

[ December 17, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

hey that is what i said...
and the aluminm foil could be used here if a mfg could get the equipment listed.

These requirements do not apply to conductors that form an
integral part of equipment,
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Good thing the DIYers are not allowed on this site. I can see it now, " I was reading on the internet its CODE to use aluminum foil for wires". Then again I am sure some clown has done it anyway. :D :D Just the other day I saw forks crammed into a meter to the power working. :D LOL

[ December 17, 2005, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: jes25 ]
 
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