Please tell me I am not crazy...

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jstjohnz

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On a recent room addition to my mother-in-law's home, the contractor installed a 220V A/C receptacle by running individual stranded conductors through the attic and inside the wall.

Just to clarify, I mean 4 stranded conductors, no conduit, no NM cable.

I told the contractor that there is no way that's acceptable, he says it is and the local inspectors are agreeing with him.

They say that individual conductors are OK as long as they are protected, and they seem to feel that running through an attic or wall is sufficient protection.

Help!!

-jim-
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

You are correct, this is NOT acceptable! Individual wires have to be run in conduit.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by jstjohnz: I told the contractor that there is no way that's acceptable, he says it is and the local inspectors are agreeing with him.
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Do you mean that "he says the local inspectors agree"? Are we left with nothing but this person's statement that they agree? Or did you talk to the local inspectors yourself, and hear it from them that they agree? If you did not talk to them, you should. I'm sure you will find that they do not agree. And don't ask him how to get in touch with the local inspectors. Call the city or county offices directly. This guy is a hazard who should be reined in, before he causes someone to get hurt.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Oh, and by the way, you are not crazy. What you are is concerned about the safety of a family member.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Just because an inspector or entire jurisdiction does not enforce a particular section of code doesn't mean it is okay to do it. There are many other considerations such as liability during insurace claims and licensing compliance.

I have been to state licensing disciplinary hearings where the excuse was used, "the inspector didn't make me do it". That didn't go over very well. And try telling that to the lawyer when they are suing you for everything you are worth.

Contractors need to get out the mindset that they are only responsible for what codes are enforced by inspectors instead of being responsible for everything the code requires.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by charlie b:
Originally posted by jstjohnz: I told the contractor that there is no way that's acceptable, he says it is and the local inspectors are agreeing with him.
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Do you mean that "he says the local inspectors agree"? Are we left with nothing but this person's statement that they agree? Or did you talk to the local inspectors yourself, and hear it from them that they agree? If you did not talk to them, you should. I'm sure you will find that they do not agree. And don't ask him how to get in touch with the local inspectors. Call the city or county offices directly. This guy is a hazard who should be reined in, before he causes someone to get hurt.
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I tried calling the inspector when I first saw this but didn't get a callback. Then my mother-in-law received a letter from the contractor saying that he had re-checked with the inspector, and that both he and his (the inspector's) boss, said it was ok, although they would use conduit in this case because of my concerns.

After seeing that letter I started calling again, and I finally spoke to the inspector this morning. They (as in he says he has discussed it with at least one other inspector) AGREE with the contractor! He says they can't find anything in the code that says that this is unacceptable practice.

I didn't have the NEC in front of me at the time but I referred him to 300.3, and their interpretation is that individual conductors is an 'approved wiring method' if the conductors are protected (though I question how individual conductors run in an open attic are protected) and that the sections re raceways only apply if you are running the wire in a raceway!

Still shaking my head over this....

-jim-
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Tell the next poor fool who gets shocked or killed working in the attic the contractor said it was OK. :p
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Is this guy for real. Theres no way he is a real electrical contractor. It sounds like he tried to pull one over got caught didnt want to admit he doesent have a clue, and so said he would run conduit to please you. Thats BS, he realized he had to fix it so gave you that excuse. As for the inspector. Hes not for real either. And if he is I would cancel his pay check.

[ December 14, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: mikeames ]
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Just out of curiosity and the fact that we can no longer tell your location by your profile information, if you don't mind me asking, where are you at?

What qualifications do these people have to have to be an inspector?

Even if these brainiacs some how think this is an approved method, do they simply ignor 300.3(B)?

(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
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Roger
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Thats the way its done in liberia,Africa no conduit, and a large fire dept.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by Tom.Margillo:Why are there four wires for a 220v outlet should be three.
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My guess is that the item needs 120 volts also, and that the four wires are phase, phase, neutral, and equipment ground.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

This is total BS. 300.3(B) is very clear and the permitted exceptions in (1) to (4) do not apply in this case. You need to find out who the inspectors in your area answer to. Is it the building department, the Electrical Board, the county commissioners, or who? They need to be made aware that their inspectors do not understand one of the most basic requirements of the NEC and are not qualified for the position!
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Is there such an outlet with a configuration of 2 hots 1 nuetral and 1 ground. Besides a twist lock.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by Tom.Margillo:
Is there such an outlet with a configuration of 2 hots 1 nuetral and 1 ground. Besides a twist lock.
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Yes, NEMA 14-X for 125/250V
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by roger:
Just out of curiosity and the fact that we can no longer tell your location by your profile information, if you don't mind me asking, where are you at?

What qualifications do these people have to have to be an inspector?

Even if these brainiacs some how think this is an approved method, do they simply ignor 300.3(B)?

(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
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Roger
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I am just outside of Indianapolis. They are interpreting 300.3.B like this: If the conductors *were* in a raceway, gutter, etc, etc, then the conductors of any circuit would have to be contained within the *SAME* raceway, etc, but that this section doesn't specifically require that all conductors be in a cable or raceway. The logic is Articles 394-398 re knob and tube wiring, for example- these wiring methods aren't specifically listed as exceptions to 300.3.B, but they pertain to individual conductors.

I can accept their logic just a bit, in that I do think that 300.3.B is primarily intended to address induction/magnetic issues re consuctor separation rather than conductor protection. In order to conclude that this practice is prohibited, I think you have to go through the entire list of 'accepted wiring methods' in 300 and show that this method isn't one of them.


-jim-

[ December 14, 2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: jstjohnz ]
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by jstjohnz:
I think you have to go through the entire list of 'accepted wiring methods' in 300 and show that this method isn't one of them.


-jim-
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300.3 Conductors.
(A) Single Conductors. Single conductors
Table 310.13 shall only be installed where recognized
wiring method of Chapter 3.

He has to prove that is wireing method is recognized. Ask for th code article allowing the single conductors.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

I think the logic (if you can call it that) is that this is K&T. It would only be allowed if it was an extension of an existing system or by special permission. Does either of these apply? Is there any K&T in your house?

-Hal
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

But even in the hayday of Knob & Tube, there were spacing requirements and mounting supports and other means and methods to ensure a proper installation. If they installed single conductors that were mounted in a fashion similar to the K&T mounting, there might be a case for calling this "reasonably safe." It would still be a code violation, but it would be safer than to have single conductors run in a way that does not keep them together.
 
Re: Please tell me I am not crazy...

Originally posted by jstjohnz: They are interpreting 300.3.B like this: If the conductors *were* in a raceway, gutter, etc, etc, then the conductors of any circuit would have to be contained within the *SAME* raceway, etc, but that this section doesn't specifically require that all conductors be in a cable or raceway.
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Yes it does. They don't get the option of adding an "if ? then" statement that does not appear in the code. You don't have to look through all approved wiring methods, hoping to show that this is not among them. The article says that all conductors shall be in the same raceway. End of discussion. Chapter closed. They are wrong.
 
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