ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: "Plug Puller"
Bob,
He posted a link to a picture of the thing, so, I've seen it.
Bob,
He posted a link to a picture of the thing, so, I've seen it.
"Plug Puller"
- Thread starter mdds
- Start date
- Status
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: "Plug Puller"
That's the one I remember having seen. Thanks Ty.
That's the one I remember having seen. Thanks Ty.
Re: "Plug Puller"
WOW!!! GREAT thoughts and ideas, everyone, and I really appreciate the thought that went into them AND your effort to share them.
Here are a couple of clarifying comments to address objections and acknowledge the creative alternate ideas mentioned:
1- The material, as I suspect almost all of you are aware, is high density nylon, generally known to be at least a "reasonably good" insulator at "nominal room temperature conditions." Just for kicks, I checked a 10" piece and found >5 MegOhms at as short a distance as 0.10"; 5-6" (straight length after knots are considered) can reasonably therefore be presumed to be >2.5 E+8 ohms (minimum). Not much good for flowing current at 60Hz.
2- Yes, full insertion is certainly a consideration. However, most of these folks don't get them all the way in to start with, so the risk, due to the tie-wrap, is not significantly increased. Fortunately, there is more than sufficient insertion distance to get a good connection, even when you subtract 0.07" or so.
3- The issue of the non-removable plug came up 3 weeks ago at my own Muscular Dystrophy Support Group's monthly meeting. It was universally agreed SOMETHING was needed. (And no, most of us adult "Jerry's Kids" don't mind talking about it at all, so don't feel nervous.) Yes, in the most exaggerated case of low grip strength, there would be an issue of inability to insert the plug, let alone get it out without wrapping the cord around your arm and jerking.
4- Charlie B's post clearly picks up the spirit of the question. GREAT thoughts! That said, my objective is to provide something heretofore unavailable for the niche market where the demand exists. Not to be too outlandish, I'm sure you'll agree that tooth-picks and pop sickle sticks aren't "tested and listed" for such purposes as disabling relays, where they find a common (and very handy) use. "Of course" it is understood that whoever performs the "installation" is not to have slobbered all over it first, turning a decent insulator into a pretty good conductor. Unlike insurance companies, lawyers, and other sharks, we're talking about real people in real day-to-day situations who have a problem to solve, and they'll gladly accept a little risk in order to make life, such as it is, a little less difficult.
5- Since you (very appropriately) brought it up, I must say that these are designed to be made one at a time, perhaps even by the end user, and (at least at this point) no mass produced product is being considered. If it was, all the UL, et al, "hand-wringing" (i.e., "testing") to confirm that it has been made as totally idiot-proof as humanly possible would be entirely appropriate. [This is certainly NOT to minimize the valuable services they provide, but I think you all rather "get my point".]
6- In these days of "no guarantees of performance" brought to is by Microsoft, many ISPs, and Cell companies (to name only the most notorious) I too have joined the "no liability shall be accepted by the designer/creator/builder/seller, under any conditions" movement. My clients sign a waiver of performance guarantees and agree in advance to a "hold harmless" commitment with respect to the item I'm creating for them. They understand that I give the item a carefully thought-out design, which ALWAYS includes THEIR input AND their involvement in mock-up, then prototype testing, as well as post-delivery fine tuning, additional mods (if necessary), etc. They're actually so glad to have someone with some design/build capability helping them overcome THEY'RE problem that they're more than willing to waive "the usual protections" to get SOMETHING rather than NOTHING to solve their issue.
7- Peteo's suggestions re: Hubbell's "ergo grip" and their Kellems cord grips, etc., are a terrific idea of which I was not aware. I'll certainly check them out. Thank you very much for the suggestion. ADA, however, is designed to provide guidance and requirements to use standard methods of granting accessibility by disabled people to the places and activities taken for granted by everyone else, rather than to provide any kind of product testing or approval; a common misunderstanding.
8- Haskindm's post concerning shock fails to recognize the "good" insulation value of this type of tie-wrap. However, I agree that it wouldn't take much to short the Hot and Neutral pins on a plug with the metal ring, but then, who in his right mind would knowingly do that? I suppose that risk could be virtually eliminated by covering the ring with a 0.08" thick coating of PVC (or similar) but then the folks at the consumer product safety commission probably would claim that the PVC is an insufficient deterrent because it could be chewed off by a pet or teething infant. As noted, "somewhere" that unique feature called "common sense" needs to seep in under the door.
9- Pierre's and Matt Harp's encouragement is magnificent! I'll certainly look into pursuing these approaches. The "first alternate" methodology I tried was to make a "plug puller" strip out of Tyvek, that slippery stuff they make envelopes and floppy disk and DVD sleeves out of that will easily cut, but will NOT tear. Well, almost. I would probably get better results working with something of a thicker gauge material, because my trial ripped before the receptacle let loose of the plug. (Picture NOT available!)
All in all, VERY nice feedback! Thank you very much everybody! I'll keep an eye out over the next week or so for additional posts for anybody that wants to weigh-in after this reply goes up.
WOW!!! GREAT thoughts and ideas, everyone, and I really appreciate the thought that went into them AND your effort to share them.
Here are a couple of clarifying comments to address objections and acknowledge the creative alternate ideas mentioned:
1- The material, as I suspect almost all of you are aware, is high density nylon, generally known to be at least a "reasonably good" insulator at "nominal room temperature conditions." Just for kicks, I checked a 10" piece and found >5 MegOhms at as short a distance as 0.10"; 5-6" (straight length after knots are considered) can reasonably therefore be presumed to be >2.5 E+8 ohms (minimum). Not much good for flowing current at 60Hz.
2- Yes, full insertion is certainly a consideration. However, most of these folks don't get them all the way in to start with, so the risk, due to the tie-wrap, is not significantly increased. Fortunately, there is more than sufficient insertion distance to get a good connection, even when you subtract 0.07" or so.
3- The issue of the non-removable plug came up 3 weeks ago at my own Muscular Dystrophy Support Group's monthly meeting. It was universally agreed SOMETHING was needed. (And no, most of us adult "Jerry's Kids" don't mind talking about it at all, so don't feel nervous.) Yes, in the most exaggerated case of low grip strength, there would be an issue of inability to insert the plug, let alone get it out without wrapping the cord around your arm and jerking.
4- Charlie B's post clearly picks up the spirit of the question. GREAT thoughts! That said, my objective is to provide something heretofore unavailable for the niche market where the demand exists. Not to be too outlandish, I'm sure you'll agree that tooth-picks and pop sickle sticks aren't "tested and listed" for such purposes as disabling relays, where they find a common (and very handy) use. "Of course" it is understood that whoever performs the "installation" is not to have slobbered all over it first, turning a decent insulator into a pretty good conductor. Unlike insurance companies, lawyers, and other sharks, we're talking about real people in real day-to-day situations who have a problem to solve, and they'll gladly accept a little risk in order to make life, such as it is, a little less difficult.
5- Since you (very appropriately) brought it up, I must say that these are designed to be made one at a time, perhaps even by the end user, and (at least at this point) no mass produced product is being considered. If it was, all the UL, et al, "hand-wringing" (i.e., "testing") to confirm that it has been made as totally idiot-proof as humanly possible would be entirely appropriate. [This is certainly NOT to minimize the valuable services they provide, but I think you all rather "get my point".]
6- In these days of "no guarantees of performance" brought to is by Microsoft, many ISPs, and Cell companies (to name only the most notorious) I too have joined the "no liability shall be accepted by the designer/creator/builder/seller, under any conditions" movement. My clients sign a waiver of performance guarantees and agree in advance to a "hold harmless" commitment with respect to the item I'm creating for them. They understand that I give the item a carefully thought-out design, which ALWAYS includes THEIR input AND their involvement in mock-up, then prototype testing, as well as post-delivery fine tuning, additional mods (if necessary), etc. They're actually so glad to have someone with some design/build capability helping them overcome THEY'RE problem that they're more than willing to waive "the usual protections" to get SOMETHING rather than NOTHING to solve their issue.
7- Peteo's suggestions re: Hubbell's "ergo grip" and their Kellems cord grips, etc., are a terrific idea of which I was not aware. I'll certainly check them out. Thank you very much for the suggestion. ADA, however, is designed to provide guidance and requirements to use standard methods of granting accessibility by disabled people to the places and activities taken for granted by everyone else, rather than to provide any kind of product testing or approval; a common misunderstanding.
8- Haskindm's post concerning shock fails to recognize the "good" insulation value of this type of tie-wrap. However, I agree that it wouldn't take much to short the Hot and Neutral pins on a plug with the metal ring, but then, who in his right mind would knowingly do that? I suppose that risk could be virtually eliminated by covering the ring with a 0.08" thick coating of PVC (or similar) but then the folks at the consumer product safety commission probably would claim that the PVC is an insufficient deterrent because it could be chewed off by a pet or teething infant. As noted, "somewhere" that unique feature called "common sense" needs to seep in under the door.
9- Pierre's and Matt Harp's encouragement is magnificent! I'll certainly look into pursuing these approaches. The "first alternate" methodology I tried was to make a "plug puller" strip out of Tyvek, that slippery stuff they make envelopes and floppy disk and DVD sleeves out of that will easily cut, but will NOT tear. Well, almost. I would probably get better results working with something of a thicker gauge material, because my trial ripped before the receptacle let loose of the plug. (Picture NOT available!)
All in all, VERY nice feedback! Thank you very much everybody! I'll keep an eye out over the next week or so for additional posts for anybody that wants to weigh-in after this reply goes up.
Brian D
Member
- Location
- Mahopac, NY
Re: "Plug Puller"
Thanks for the picture TY. That is hilarious!(as long as I'm not in that pool.)
Thanks for the picture TY. That is hilarious!(as long as I'm not in that pool.)
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: "Plug Puller"
Sorry about that. I totally missed the link to the photo.
bob
Sorry about that. I totally missed the link to the photo.
bob
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: "Plug Puller"
MDDS: For the record, you have not convinced me that your device would be safe. I continue to believe that it is not safe. Also, with your having been advised that it is not safe, I strongly suspect that if you market this thing, no amount of signed waivers will protect you, in the event someone gets hurt. The court will discover, and will take into account, the fact that you were advised that it was not safe. And even forgetting the courts, if someone does get hurt, and if you learn about the incident, do you think that a signed waiver will protect you from your own feelings of guilt, from your own suspicions that you were the cause of someone getting hurt?
I understand that your clients have needs that most of us would not understand. But I strongly advise you to abandon this concept, and go back to the drawing board.
MDDS: For the record, you have not convinced me that your device would be safe. I continue to believe that it is not safe. Also, with your having been advised that it is not safe, I strongly suspect that if you market this thing, no amount of signed waivers will protect you, in the event someone gets hurt. The court will discover, and will take into account, the fact that you were advised that it was not safe. And even forgetting the courts, if someone does get hurt, and if you learn about the incident, do you think that a signed waiver will protect you from your own feelings of guilt, from your own suspicions that you were the cause of someone getting hurt?
I understand that your clients have needs that most of us would not understand. But I strongly advise you to abandon this concept, and go back to the drawing board.
Re: "Plug Puller"
MDDS,
I am aware that nylon wire ties are good insulators. I agree that a reasonable person could use this device and be reasonably safe. Unfortunately, when you make something available to the public, you are no longer dealing with "reasonable people". You are dealing with lawyers and people whose purpose in life is to make money off of people that had "good intentions". I think you and everyone else would agree that no testing agency would put their seal on this device as being "safe". Any item made available to the public needs to be "idiot proof" and warnings against mis-use will need to be spelled out in detail. Look at the warnings that come with a ladder. It probably costs as much to print the manual as it does to build the ladder. It can all be summarized as "don't do anything stupid with this ladder" but it all has to be spelled out. We are just trying to make you aware of the tremendous liability that you would be exposed to if you make this generally available. Would it work? sure! Would I use it for my own use if needed? sure! Would I want to market it to the general public? Not in a million years!
MDDS,
I am aware that nylon wire ties are good insulators. I agree that a reasonable person could use this device and be reasonably safe. Unfortunately, when you make something available to the public, you are no longer dealing with "reasonable people". You are dealing with lawyers and people whose purpose in life is to make money off of people that had "good intentions". I think you and everyone else would agree that no testing agency would put their seal on this device as being "safe". Any item made available to the public needs to be "idiot proof" and warnings against mis-use will need to be spelled out in detail. Look at the warnings that come with a ladder. It probably costs as much to print the manual as it does to build the ladder. It can all be summarized as "don't do anything stupid with this ladder" but it all has to be spelled out. We are just trying to make you aware of the tremendous liability that you would be exposed to if you make this generally available. Would it work? sure! Would I use it for my own use if needed? sure! Would I want to market it to the general public? Not in a million years!
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: "Plug Puller"
Is that an Asian toilet?
- Status