Plug tester not registering ground

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Captainjon0107

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Littleton, Colorado, USA
I am trying to troubleshoot some older homes for remodels, and I keep running into poor or nonexistent ground connections at receptacles. Even after verifying that a ground wire is indeed connected, I can't get the plug tester to show and I'm not getting 120v between the hot and ground on my meter.

Short of going box to box and checking every connection in the circuit or crawling in an attic or crawlspace to hunt down a bad ground connection, what other options do I have to solve this?

My two immediate thoughts are:
1.) Put in a GFCI instead of a standard duplex recep. Won't the GFCI trip if there's an overload, regardless if a ground connection is present?

2.) Put in a non-grounding duplex recep.

Will either of these options be legal with regards to the code?

I know I can pigtail off the neutral and get the same function, but I don't want to do that, since it's not code.
 
Captainjon0107 said:
I am trying to troubleshoot some older homes for remodels, and I keep running into poor or nonexistent ground connections at receptacles. Even after verifying that a ground wire is indeed connected, I can't get the plug tester to show and I'm not getting 120v between the hot and ground on my meter.

Short of going box to box and checking every connection in the circuit or crawling in an attic or crawlspace to hunt down a bad ground connection, what other options do I have to solve this?

My two immediate thoughts are:
1.) Put in a GFCI instead of a standard duplex recep. Won't the GFCI trip if there's an overload, regardless if a ground connection is present?

2.) Put in a non-grounding duplex recep.

Will either of these options be legal with regards to the code?

I know I can pigtail off the neutral and get the same function, but I don't want to do that, since it's not code.
Click to expand...
1. The GFCI receptacle will trip if there is a ground fault above about 6ma. It does not sense an overload that is between hot and neutral.
The code allows this use of a three wire GFCI receptacle if there is no ground present in the circuit. It is not clear whether you can just ignore a ground wire that is present but disconnected. (Either an accident or a deliberate attempt to conceal a lack of ground.) You would have to add a sticker indicating that no ground is present (which is included in the package with the receptacle.)
2. That would be allowed as a replacement for an existing two wire receptacle. Possibly does not apply to your case, since the replacement has alrady been made (incorrectly) by persons unknown.

You could try using a cable tracer to find the disconnected end of the EGC wire. But there may not be any place to (re)connect it to.
 
Captainjon0107 said:
I know I can pigtail off the neutral and get the same function, but I don't want to do that, since it's not code.
Click to expand...
You can not do that and the "Code" is not the problem, you would be creating a dangerous (possibly a life threatening) situation.

Roger
 
GoldDigger said:
1. The GFCI receptacle will trip if there is a ground fault above about 6ma. It does not sense an overload that is between hot and neutral.
The code allows this use of a three wire GFCI receptacle if there is no ground present in the circuit. It is not clear whether you can just ignore a ground wire that is present but disconnected. (Either an accident or a deliberate attempt to conceal a lack of ground.) You would have to add a sticker indicating that no ground is present (which is included in the package with the receptacle.)
2. That would be allowed as a replacement for an existing two wire receptacle. Possibly does not apply to your case, since the replacement has alrady been made (incorrectly) by persons unknown.

You could try using a cable tracer to find the disconnected end of the EGC wire. But there may not be any place to (re)connect it to.
Click to expand...

I'm the guy coming in to troubleshoot and finish off the trim. I haven't wired any of the homes. Apparently, a reasonable bid is too expensive, so they pay a few hacks to come in and wire a 3 story home in 2 days. Then I'm stuck trying to figure out what they messed up.

I see lots of attempts at just looping the ground wire around a screw in the box and using the recep connection to the box as the bond, but I really don't like that method. In my opinion, it doesn't give a good ground connection.

As long as I put the "no ground present" sticker on the GFCI, then I shouldn't get any complaints from an inspector, correct?
 
roger said:
You can not do that and the "Code" is not the problem, you would be creating a dangerous (possibly a life threatening) situation.

Roger
Click to expand...

That's what I meant as well. My apologies for poorly explaining.

Sadly, I have seen this quite a few times. I was talking to my dad (a Master electrician) about how crazy and stupid it was to do that.
 
Welcome. GFCI breakers, if available for the panels, are going to be much cheaper than replacing every bad receptacle you encounter. I'd open the panel to verify the branch circuit EGCs are actually there, and that someone didnt shove a piece of wire in the box(es) to make it look like there is a ground. You do NOT want to bootleg the ground to the neutral.

GFCI will trip on ground fault >6ma regardless of if the EGC is present or intact.

If the circuits have been rigged or receptacles replaced before and the grounds poorly made up/disconnected, going thru every box may be necessary to determine where the EGC continuity has failed/been bypassed.

Captainjon0107 said:
I am trying to troubleshoot some older homes for remodels, and I keep running into poor or nonexistent ground connections at receptacles. Even after verifying that a ground wire is indeed connected, I can't get the plug tester to show and I'm not getting 120v between the hot and ground on my meter.

Short of going box to box and checking every connection in the circuit or crawling in an attic or crawlspace to hunt down a bad ground connection, what other options do I have to solve this?

My two immediate thoughts are:
1.) Put in a GFCI instead of a standard duplex recep. Won't the GFCI trip if there's an overload, regardless if a ground connection is present?

2.) Put in a non-grounding duplex recep.

Will either of these options be legal with regards to the code?

I know I can pigtail off the neutral and get the same function, but I don't want to do that, since it's not code.
Click to expand...
 
One more point:

Technically you do not need to install a GFCI receptacle at every outlet.
Instead you can use the feed through protection from the first receptacle in a run and put extra "No Ground Present" stickers from the GFCI package on regular three wire receptacles downstream.
 
Captainjon0107 said:
I'm the guy coming in to troubleshoot and finish off the trim. I haven't wired any of the homes. Apparently, a reasonable bid is too expensive, so they pay a few hacks to come in and wire a 3 story home in 2 days. Then I'm stuck trying to figure out what they messed up.

I see lots of attempts at just looping the ground wire around a screw in the box and using the recep connection to the box as the bond, but I really don't like that method. In my opinion, it doesn't give a good ground connection.

As long as I put the "no ground present" sticker on the GFCI, then I shouldn't get any complaints from an inspector, correct?
Click to expand...

Oh no. On a new house, there had better be an EGC there. I thought your first post was talking about a much older home, not new construction.

Metal boxes must be bonded, and removing a device cannot interrupt EGC continuity. Typically all EGC in a box are twisted together, crimped or wire-nutted, then the tail(s) hits the box screw then device(s).
 
GoldDigger said:
One more point:

Technically you do not need to install a GFCI receptacle at every outlet.
Instead you can use the feed through protection from the first receptacle in a run and put extra "No Ground Present" stickers from the GFCI package on regular three wire receptacles downstream.
Click to expand...

I'll keep that in mind. The particular homes I'm dealing with now have just a few receptacles that are showing no ground, and there's only one romex wire coming into the box.
 
JFletcher said:
Oh no. On a new house, there had better be an EGC there. I thought your first post was talking about a much older home, not new construction.

Metal boxes must be bonded, and removing a device cannot interrupt EGC continuity. Typically all EGC in a box are twisted together, crimped or wire-nutted, then the tail(s) hits the box screw then device(s).
Click to expand...

These are older homes. I think the youngest one is about mid-1990s construction. These are all remodel fix and flips.

Whenever I do make-up myself, I always pigtail from the box and connect to the incoming hound with a pigtail to the device.

The guys that I'm following behind, however, do not believe in that...
 
JFletcher said:
Welcome. GFCI breakers, if available for the panels, are going to be much cheaper than replacing every bad receptacle you encounter. I'd open the panel to verify the branch circuit EGCs are actually there, and that someone didnt shove a piece of wire in the box(es) to make it look like there is a ground. You do NOT want to bootleg the ground to the neutral.

GFCI will trip on ground fault >6ma regardless of if the EGC is present or intact.

If the circuits have been rigged or receptacles replaced before and the grounds poorly made up/disconnected, going thru every box may be necessary to determine where the EGC continuity has failed/been bypassed.
Click to expand...

I've tried to get the owner to buy GFCI and AFCI breakers so we can at least attempt to meet current code, but he's cheap... he thinks they're too expensive.
 
Captainjon0107 said:
I don't know. I have them connected as of now, even though they're not doing anything.
Click to expand...

It sounds like there is an open splice somewhere or a conductor not connected in the panel properly. Sticking a GFCI or AFCI breaker in the circuit isn't fixing anything. Like it or not, the only way to fix your problem is to locate the open grounding conductor(s) and repair them.
 
Captainjon0107 said:
These are older homes. I think the youngest one is about mid-1990s construction. These are all remodel fix and flips.

Whenever I do make-up myself, I always pigtail from the box and connect to the incoming hound with a pigtail to the device.

The guys that I'm following behind, however, do not believe in that...
Click to expand...

Captainjon0107 said:
I'll keep that in mind. The particular homes I'm dealing with now have just a few receptacles that are showing no ground, and there's only one romex wire coming into the box.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a DIY/unpermitted add-on then. Look for the closest outlet someone would/could have fed from, and check the ground there. I've run across a few installs where whoever knew how to hook up one end, but got into a 4 gang box, full j-box, or whatnot on the other end, or ran into a Buchannon crimp, and didnt know/didnt want to remove it, and left the EGC loose or half-***ed wrapped it a turn or two over the existing EGCs - either will give bad/no ground readings.
 
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