Plug tester not registering ground

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JFletcher said:
Sounds like a DIY/unpermitted add-on then. Look for the closest outlet someone would/could have fed from, and check the ground there. I've run across a few installs where whoever knew how to hook up one end, but got into a 4 gang box, full j-box, or whatnot on the other end, or ran into a Buchannon crimp, and didnt know/didnt want to remove it, and left the EGC loose or half-***ed wrapped it a turn or two over the existing EGCs - either will give bad/no ground readings.
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How'd you guess!?
 
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Not all 2 wires can get GFI'd

Not all 2 wires can get GFI'd

FYI In another post someone had a list of things you can not use a GFI to replace a two wire rectp with. Don't know what they are but it was quite a big list.
 
Captainjon0107 said:
I'm the guy coming in to troubleshoot and finish off the trim. I haven't wired any of the homes. Apparently, a reasonable bid is too expensive, so they pay a few hacks to come in and wire a 3 story home in 2 days. Then I'm stuck trying to figure out what they messed up.... These are all remodel fix and flips.
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ActionDave said:
Your profile says Licensed Colorado Journeyman. Act like one and stop looking for a handyman level solution.
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I agree. It's your name on the mess, so if the flipper is too cheap to get the proper permits and do things right I would walk.

-Hal
 
Captainjon0107 said:
How'd you guess!?
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wish I'd seen the pic that was removed.

You cannot put a two wire recep in or install a GFCI w/no ground where there is an EGC (seeing either would make me think 'whiskey tango foxtrot?'). VA is about as lax as it gets, and we cannot do that here. I'd rather quit the trade than install something like that. Now, 2 wire cloth NM ca 1955, sure, but not in a 1990s build house. Find that loose ground, get better at troubleshooting these things; a GFCI doesnt mitigate HO/hack work. and ime I learn the fastest when something is screwed up and I'm racking my brains trying to figure out why.

I assume you already know how I knew, but if not: a single NM coming into a box is either end of the line, or was forgotten/added on to. If 95% of receptacles pass a plug/meter test, but not the ones with a single NM in it, it screams to me HO/hack work, and I'd look in the nearest box to find the problem.

You'll get to the point where you can just find these things, open up a box and correct it, and laugh at the time where you thought putting in a $20 GFCI was a valid fix. The School of Hard Knocks is a great teacher.

My apologies if I am coming off harsh or condescending; my post is not intended that way, rather so that you'll know next time. Part of me is still cringing re: bootlegging a ground to neutral.
 
JFletcher said:
wish I'd seen the pic that was removed.

You cannot put a two wire recep in or install a GFCI w/no ground where there is an EGC (seeing either would make me think 'whiskey tango foxtrot?'). VA is about as lax as it gets, and we cannot do that here. I'd rather quit the trade than install something like that. Now, 2 wire cloth NM ca 1955, sure, but not in a 1990s build house. Find that loose ground, get better at troubleshooting these things; a GFCI doesnt mitigate HO/hack work. and ime I learn the fastest when something is screwed up and I'm racking my brains trying to figure out why.

I assume you already know how I knew, but if not: a single NM coming into a box is either end of the line, or was forgotten/added on to. If 95% of receptacles pass a plug/meter test, but not the ones with a single NM in it, it screams to me HO/hack work, and I'd look in the nearest box to find the problem.

You'll get to the point where you can just find these things, open up a box and correct it, and laugh at the time where you thought putting in a $20 GFCI was a valid fix. The School of Hard Knocks is a great teacher.

My apologies if I am coming off harsh or condescending; my post is not intended that way, rather so that you'll know next time. Part of me is still cringing re: bootlegging a ground to neutral.
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I met the guy who wired these houses a few days ago. I told him what the inspection reports said and bootlegging a ground to the neutral was the first thing he said. I cringed inside.

I didn't find your comments condescending at all. In fact, they've been very constructive and informative. Thank you for that. We're all here to learn and get better at what we do, so anything that adds to the conversation is a good thing, imo.

I just don't want to sit there combing through box after box trying to find one bad ground twist. It's infuriating because I don't wire boxes that way. I've chewed out an apprentice for doing it because he didn't feel like walking down a floor in a high rise to get more wire nuts.

I suspect that some of these bad grounds involve bad connections in the attic, and we all know how fun it is crawling around in those looking for j-boxes or splices not in boxes. The only reason I thought about the GFCIs was because I read somewhere that they could still function without the EGC and I thought maybe there was a code exception that I didn't know about. Obviously, that was incorrect, so I'm just going to have to walk away, or resolve to find the errors myself.
 
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jumper said:
There is not one, the alternatives listed in the NEC are for where an EGC does not exist, you have a bad EGC that needs fixed.

Edit: What Kate said.:thumbsup:
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I agree w/ this and other posts that stress the importance of fixing this, and do not agree that any exception is applicable
b/c 406.9 (D)(1) tells you that if any of the approved egcs ( which the op very likely has in at least one of these houses, even if disconnected or poor) listed in 250.118 exists in the box, the receptacle must be connected to it.

Find it, Fix it, or walk.

just the cowboy said:
FYI In another post someone had a list of things you can not use a GFI to replace a two wire rectp with. Don't know what they are but it was quite a big list.
Click to expand...

That was 250.114(3) A thru E, and it is a lot of stuff.:happyyes:
 
JFletcher said:
wish I'd seen the pic that was removed.

You cannot put a two wire recep in or install a GFCI w/no ground where there is an EGC (seeing either would make me think 'whiskey tango foxtrot?'). VA is about as lax as it gets, and we cannot do that here. I'd rather quit the trade than install something like that. Now, 2 wire cloth NM ca 1955, sure, but not in a 1990s build house. Find that loose ground, get better at troubleshooting these things; a GFCI doesnt mitigate HO/hack work. and ime I learn the fastest when something is screwed up and I'm racking my brains trying to figure out why.

I assume you already know how I knew, but if not: a single NM coming into a box is either end of the line, or was forgotten/added on to. If 95% of receptacles pass a plug/meter test, but not the ones with a single NM in it, it screams to me HO/hack work, and I'd look in the nearest box to find the problem.

You'll get to the point where you can just find these things, open up a box and correct it, and laugh at the time where you thought putting in a $20 GFCI was a valid fix. The School of Hard Knocks is a great teacher.

My apologies if I am coming off harsh or condescending; my post is not intended that way, rather so that you'll know next time. Part of me is still cringing re: bootlegging a ground to neutral.
Click to expand...

user 100 said:
I agree w/ this and other posts that stress the importance of fixing this, and do not agree that any exception is applicable
b/c 406.9 (D)(1) tells you that if any of the approved egcs ( which the op very likely has in at least one of these houses, even if disconnected or poor) listed in 250.118 exists in the box, the receptacle must be connected to it.

Find it, Fix it, or walk.



That was 250.114(3) A thru E, and it is a lot of stuff.:happyyes:
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
Captain Jon,

I had a similar problem in a new build a long time ago. This gadget paid for itself the first time I used it. It can trace conductors through walls and give you an idea of where the open is. It takes some practice to get the hang of using the tracer, but when you do, it's the best <$50 tracer there is. I have used mine to find opens buried in walls with great success on more than one occasion. If yours was my job, there is no question that I would be using it.

http://www.zackelectronics.com/gb-g...vF1LsrdGt15AtemMdN7bMBrZfEe4IEgXlkxoCU4Pw_wcB
 
Captainjon0107 said:
I met the guy who wired these houses a few days ago. I told him what the inspection reports said and bootlegging a ground to the neutral was the first thing he said. I cringed inside.

I didn't find your comments condescending at all. In fact, they've been very constructive and informative. Thank you for that. We're all here to learn and get better at what we do, so anything that adds to the conversation is a good thing, imo.

I just don't want to sit there combing through box after box trying to find one bad ground twist. It's infuriating because I don't wire boxes that way. I've chewed out an apprentice for doing it because he didn't feel like walking down a floor in a high rise to get more wire nuts.

I suspect that some of these bad grounds involve bad connections in the attic, and we all know how fun it is crawling around in those looking for j-boxes or splices not in boxes. The only reason I thought about the GFCIs was because I read somewhere that they could still function without the EGC and I thought maybe there was a code exception that I didn't know about. Obviously, that was incorrect, so I'm just going to have to walk away, or resolve to find the errors myself.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:

I agree attics are horrible, but most DIY fixes arent going to involve them, rather the nearest box, and damn box fill, connected EGCs, polarity, unintentionally switched receptacles, etc. atleast it's cool this time of year in most attics.
 
K8MHZ said:
Captain Jon,

I had a similar problem in a new build a long time ago. This gadget paid for itself the first time I used it. It can trace conductors through walls and give you an idea of where the open is. It takes some practice to get the hang of using the tracer, but when you do, it's the best <$50 tracer there is. I have used mine to find opens buried in walls with great success on more than one occasion. If yours was my job, there is no question that I would be using it.

http://www.zackelectronics.com/gb-g...vF1LsrdGt15AtemMdN7bMBrZfEe4IEgXlkxoCU4Pw_wcB
Click to expand...

Seems like a nifty tool. I'll need to pick one up when I get my next check.
 
Captainjon0107 said:
Seems like a nifty tool. I'll need to pick one up when I get my next check.
Click to expand...

Although the sensitivity of the detector is designed for the high audio frequency test tone, it can also double as an energized wire detector at 60Hz. I would not rely on that feature for anything important though. The tiny partially recessed button to energize the detector on mine is hard to operate and somewhat unreliable. :happysad:
 
GoldDigger said:
Although the sensitivity of the detector is designed for the high audio frequency test tone, it can also double as an energized wire detector at 60Hz. I would not rely on that feature for anything important though. The tiny partially recessed button to energize the detector on mine is hard to operate and somewhat unreliable. :happysad:
Click to expand...

I have only used them on conductors that were not energized. Yeah, the button on the wand could use some improvement.
 
GoldDigger said:
Although the sensitivity of the detector is designed for the high audio frequency test tone, it can also double as an energized wire detector at 60Hz. I would not rely on that feature for anything important though. The tiny partially recessed button to energize the detector on mine is hard to operate and somewhat unreliable. :happysad:
Click to expand...

That's what tic testers and volt meters are for! :D
 
Captainjon0107 said:
And what, exactly, does that mean?

I'm searching for a solution that will save costs because someone else did a poor job. I can't fix stupid. I can sometimes fix what stupid does, but it's not free and it's not cheap.
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It means conduct yourself like a professional and not like the hacks that got the place into this mess in the first place. Find a solution, not a way around the rules. The rule is you need an EGC, so find a way to fix or replace the lost/missing EGC, and stop looking for a way to get by without an EGC.
 
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