Plywood Panel Backer Board

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Pierre C Belarge said:
It the wood panel and the strips are installed in a damp location (which by description of the OP it is), the panel is securing/supporting the panel, then it becomes part of the structure. The building official has every right as a CEO to require the wood to meet the requirements.

I have a number of photos where the wood supporting electrical equipment located in the basement on an exterior wall, is decayed and the wiring method is holding the equipment up.
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My own panel was like that when I moved into my 80+ yr old house.

I like treated lumber to be used on any concrete surface as good measure.
 
infinity said:
So lets say hypothetically you do a service upgrade and you use a wood product that does not comply with the building code should that service pass inspection anyway?
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It should pass the electrical inspection. If you drill more than 40% of an exterior wall (stud) the building inspector will fail the 'job" not the electrical inspector.

cadpoint said:
I really don?t see what the problem is, it?s not an NEC code thing it is a Building Code issue.

We are generally not at liberty to install into other possible BC violations.

By BC around here one cannot put simple non treated wood down on concrete at floor level (street level) or on sub basement floors; I don?t think it?s a stretch to say that also includes under grade walls.
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I think that it is a stretch. Stretch is not in the code.

If the code is followed:
"SECTION R406 FOUNDATION WATERPROOFING AND DAMPPROOFING

R406.1 Concrete and masonry foundation dampproofing.

Except where required to be waterproofed by Section R406.2, foundation walls that retain earth and enclose habitable or usable spaces located below grade shall be dampproofed from the top of the footing to the finished grade. Masonry walls shall have not less than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm) portland cement parging applied to the exterior of the wall. The parging shall be dampproofed with a bituminous coating, 3 pounds per square yard (1.63 kg/m2) of acrylic modified cement, 1/8-inch (3.2 mm) coat of surface-bonding mortar complying with ASTM C 887 or any material permitted for waterproofing in Section R406.2. Concrete walls shall be dampproofed by applying any one of the above listed dampproofing materials or any one of the waterproofing materials listed in Section R406.2 to the exterior of the wall.

Exception: An existing foundation shall not be required to be dampproofed where a supplemental interior foundation drainage system is tied to a sump pump."

Then the plywood for your panel is no longer in a damp location.

acrwc10 said:
YES they do. There is a listing and an installation requirement for just about every building material out there. You are not going to find it in the NEC because the NEC is only concerned with the materials that are directly related to electrical. This does not mean you can ignore the building codes or the requirements of the other materials. I would bet any one here who thinks other wise doesn't have a copy of the building code or any of the other standards that are referenced in it.
As to the comment on the "fasteners" there is a standard for those too.
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Yes there is a listing. And as I said in my first post the plywood satisfies the code.

You could go to www.apawood.org look for TB-203. You must register to read it.
 
Code is neither or not a Trade association listing of their material, either.

It seems you want to argue both sides to prove that your right.

Forgive me but your first post #2 doesn't seem even justifiable to your 2nd, #4 post, gezz is that a stretch two ?

I might be totally wrong, in two respects; NC and OH don't share the same Building Codes. But I don't think it's a stretch of what I said is wrong, either.
I've seen it done in wood construction on concrete, and the answer I got back was it's their code requirement,my fault that I didn't ask for numbers and verse.

I'll ask two different old salty carpenters tomorrow... Because I also have some other fine questions about their beautiful work that I do have questions on!

Maybe this is all just a strecth on my part!
 
You will get flagged by the building inspector every time if you dont use treated studs, treated furring strips , or treated plywood in direct contact with masonry walls below grade unless an approved vapor retarder is applied. It is clearly stated in IRC R319.1-7. When you apply plywood to the wall it becomes an interior wall covering, and must meet the building code. The fact that you install an electrical panel on the plywood has nothing to do with it . The building inspector doesn't can what if anything you use the panel for .
 
cadpoint said:
Code is neither or not a Trade association listing of their material, either.

It seems you want to argue both sides to prove that your right.

Forgive me but your first post #2 doesn't seem even justifiable to your 2nd, #4 post, gezz is that a stretch two ?

I might be totally wrong, in two respects; NC and OH don't share the same Building Codes. But I don't think it's a stretch of what I said is wrong, either.
I've seen it done in wood construction on concrete, and the answer I got back was it's their code requirement,my fault that I didn't ask for numbers and verse.
I'll ask two different old salty carpenters tomorrow... Because I also have some other fine questions about their beautiful work that I do have questions on!

Maybe this is all just a strecth on my part!
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GEEZ, there was an answer in post 2 and a code section in post 4. All be it the building code and not the NEC. Sorry you didn't like the answer. When you ask your nail bender buddys if it is all right by them be sure to also ask them if they have a current copy of the building code. I'll bet they don't. :D
 
cadpoint said:
Code is neither or not a Trade association listing of their material, either.

It seems you want to argue both sides to prove that your right.

Forgive me but your first post #2 doesn't seem even justifiable to your 2nd, #4 post, gezz is that a stretch two ?

I might be totally wrong, in two respects; NC and OH don't share the same Building Codes. But I don't think it's a stretch of what I said is wrong, either.
I've seen it done in wood construction on concrete, and the answer I got back was it's their code requirement,my fault that I didn't ask for numbers and verse.

I'll ask two different old salty carpenters tomorrow... Because I also have some other fine questions about their beautiful work that I do have questions on!

Maybe this is all just a strecth on my part!
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NC and OH both use the international residential code IRC . The difference would be for the termite zone . R319.1 is for decay not termites.
 
acrwc10 said:
YES they do. There is a listing and an installation requirement for just about every building material out there. You are not going to find it in the NEC because the NEC is only concerned with the materials that are directly related to electrical. This does not mean you can ignore the building codes or the requirements of the other materials. I would bet any one here who thinks other wise doesn't have a copy of the building code or any of the other standards that are referenced in it.
As to the comment on the "fasteners" there is a standard for those too.
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I figured there was a listing for most manufactured items like plywood, fasteners, trusses, etc but dimension lumber is literally a natural product that has been cut to size and probably only has a rating as well as quality grades.

Even concrete is not a single product as there are many formulas used to get different performances. This could have some impact on how moisture proof the basement wall may be, and as already mentioned is usually required to be sealed on exterior side possibly making the interior side a non damp location.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Concrete is hygroscopic. The higher psi does not make it waterproof, it slows the water movement in the concrete.
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True - my point was different formulas can and will have different ratings, there are also sealers that are applied which will change the ratings.

How much water is expected to be present to move through the concrete must also be considered, especially with the type of sealer to be used.
 
If this was your home would you want some one to apply things to the wall that does not meet the building code and will rot and mildew ? If the AHJ gets po he can make you install insulation board between the strips. We as electricians need to learn the things about the building code that concerns our work so there can be an understanding with the owner in the beginning who is going to pay for what. That is much better then waiting untill an argument starts. I cant believe this thread got to this point over treated or non treated strips. I always use treated in contact with masonry wether below grade or not , Its the building code , use the treated and be done with it .:grin:
 
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Pierre C Belarge said:
Concrete is hygroscopic. The higher psi does not make it waterproof, it slows the water movement in the concrete.
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Agreed. I understand capillary action. If the foundation is properly installed this should be at a minimum.

This reference is to show that plywood has properties that should make it more than acceptable in what I believe is a dry location.

R604.3 Installation.

Wood structural panel wall sheathing shall be attached to framing in accordance with Table R602.3(1). Wood structural panels marked Exposure 1 or Exterior are considered water-repellent sheathing under the code.

From APA "Should condensation occur, wood structural panels have the ability to absorb some moisture without ill effects during critical periods and give it up again as conditions change."

Would I install it? No. Would I pass it? Yes.
 
jxofaltrds said:
Agreed. I understand capillary action. If the foundation is properly installed this should be at a minimum.

This reference is to show that plywood has properties that should make it more than acceptable in what I believe is a dry location.

R604.3 Installation.

Wood structural panel wall sheathing shall be attached to framing in accordance with Table R602.3(1). Wood structural panels marked Exposure 1 or Exterior are considered water-repellent sheathing under the code.

From APA "Should condensation occur, wood structural panels have the ability to absorb some moisture without ill effects during critical periods and give it up again as conditions change."

Would I install it? No. Would I pass it? Yes.
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That is materials used for building that will get wet during construction but can dry out as the work proceeds. It does not apply to materials that will be installed where there is chance for continuous moisture and there is no air movement to dry back out. The water repellent is no were close to being a vapor barrier.In the wall and covered is not a critical period where conditions change. Things stay the same and it rots .
 
I am only going to say that during the last 20 years or so almost all new homes I have ever worked in have had finished basements, the foundation walls are sealed to keep moisture out. If they don't keep moisture out they will have serious mold problems. Most of the mold problems I have seen have been after a flooding incident where there was water that is not normally present at all. I see framers using treated lumber for the bottom plate of their walls on concrete often but almost never for anything in contact with foundation walls. There is no building inspector in most areas I work however. Commercial work gets inspected by fire marshal but he is usually looking more for fire rating of finished surfaces doors, etc., draft stops, methods of egress, emergency lighting, and exit signs, and ADA compliance.
 
Our personal views as contractors do not apply to the question at hand.

We must put on our inspector hats to answer the question.

I have found nothing in the code or at http://www.apawood.org/ that gives me the authority to turn down this installation. Search the link and if you can find a reason for me to turn down the installation then I will change my mind.
 
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