Poco 'solar map' Q ???

[romex jockey]

I'm new to this, so i'm looking for some opinions

check this out>

http://gmp.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=4eaec2b58c4c4820b24c408a95ee8956

what do you think?

~RJ~

 

[jaggedben]

Interesting. But what sort of opinions are you looking for?

An educated guess is that the map has more immediate relevance for large interconnections (1MW and up) than for smaller systems. Residential is going to be more affected by the small scale distribution transformer.

 

[romex jockey]

Interesting. But what sort of opinions are you looking for?

An educated guess is that the map has more immediate relevance for large interconnections (1MW and up) than for smaller systems. Residential is going to be more affected by the small scale distribution transformer.

welp, 1st off, know that we've an aging infrastructure , there's been quite the ado said around these parts

2nd , it just doesn't seem to fit juxtaposed to their 'vision'....


https://greenmountainpower.com/news/gmp-launches-vision-to-have-100-renewable-energy-by-2030/

~RJ~

 

[electrofelon]

That is cool. I hope mbrooke sees this, he will probably like it too. I am a bit surprised that show DG capacity as equal to the sub's transformer capacity. Seems like it would be much more complicated then that. I would think voltage issues would be the first problem to crop up if say a voltage regulator didnt have enough range to compensate for large reverse energy flows. On the other end of the spectrum, seems like DG capacity could be way over sub capacity as there will always be loads.

 

[mbrooke]

That is cool. I hope mbrooke sees this, he will probably like it too. I am a bit surprised that show DG capacity as equal to the sub's transformer capacity. Seems like it would be much more complicated then that. I would think voltage issues would be the first problem to crop up if say a voltage regulator didnt have enough range to compensate for large reverse energy flows. On the other end of the spectrum, seems like DG capacity could be way over sub capacity as there will always be loads.

Rhode Island and NY has a similar map. More POCOs are to follow soon. And yes I like it

It is a bit more complicated in the grand scheme in terms of voltage and other factors, POCOs will do some coordinating, but the intent of the map is to make it easy for people to determine where its best to place generation on the countless miles of circuits.

It won't be long before average electricians are looking at these maps and say "yahhhh, we can put some solar on this home supplied by this circuit and have the POCO paying the owner a good deal for it"

 

[mbrooke]

I am a bit surprised that show DG capacity as equal to the sub's transformer capacity. Seems like it would be much more complicated then that.

It is, but in theory if you distribute generation evenly as load is distributed evenly through out a circuit you could have each mutually balance one another with little or no load on the substation. You can even back feed the substation so if one town has to much generation and another less the surplus can be sent over.


The function of the electrical grid will no longer be to move power from a few super large generators states away to load consuming pockets but rather to "balance" local generation. Meaning if you home's solar is producing a few more KW then is being consumed in the home but your neighbors solar output happens to be a few KW short relative to his use the #6 AL triplex on the pole will simply move those few extra KW to his home. The pole pig at times will not even have energy flowing yet houses will be using several killowatts of power.

Same idea into the medium voltage levels as well.

A hospital's extra 500kw of co generation, wind and solar will back feed the medium voltage circuit to give businesses power that don't have enough of their own.

 

[electrofelon]

Rhode Island and NY has a similar map.

Yeah I tried to look at the national grid NY one, but you have to make an account and I tried but there is a bug or something and I cant make an account. Ill try later and email them if I still have trouble. I would like to see what it says about my feeder.

It is, but in theory if you distribute generation evenly as load is distributed evenly through out a circuit you could have each mutually balance one another with little or no load on the substation..

but could most subs handle that as is? I keep thinking that most lines are older and likely DG was not considered at all when they were designed and built. Can voltage be kept in limits? Seems like at a minimum a few voltage regulators would need to be modified or swapped out, particularly in my area where we have low 4800V distribution .

 

[mbrooke]

And to add that some POCOs will also use this for micro grid schemes rewarding investors and co-generation entrepreneurs (risk is small really).



With all the wire mounted sensors:


https://selinc.com/solutions/fault-indicators-and-sensors/



And recloser loop schemes / smart switches / DNA:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VGs7FdrSIE


POCOs will use them to not only monitor voltage and real time data for stable power and revenue, but also to restore service to undamaged sections of distribution circuits even when all else, including the national grid itself is down. They will calculate the load of any particular segment, determined that owner generation will handle it, isolate down to just the right amount of customers, and then signal customer generation synchronize to back-feed the distribution system.


Similar to what is being done here (whole video is worth watching):

https://youtu.be/2kuLyMl2_9Y?t=675


A hurricane could take out all of the transmission system and most of the distribution system- but a data center, hospital or factory will light up neighborhoods near by getting payed 5x the killowatt hours by the POCO simply for "being there" in times of urgency. Especially when you consider a lot of new/suburban construction is underground.


Its that 5x payback, along with the green credit of the solar panels that will incentivize customers to work with others to build such.

 

[mbrooke]

Yeah I tried to look at the national grid NY one, but you have to make an account and I tried but there is a bug or something and I cant make an account. Ill try later and email them if I still have trouble. I would like to see what it says about my feeder.

NY is stingy about such stuff without any reason really.

but could most subs handle that as is? I keep thinking that most lines are older and likely DG was not considered at all when they were designed and built.

Two things:

1) Wires don't care about the direction of power flow, and neither do transformers.

2) Many circuits have been upgraded with sensors and automatic switches/breakers making real time monitoring a breeze.


The subs won't care either. If you have have 1800KWs of generation being injected at various points on a circuit supply 2000KWs of customers the substation transformer will be much happier being loaded to 400kw instead of 2000kw.

Can voltage be kept in limits? Seems like at a minimum a few voltage regulators would need to be modified or swapped out, particularly in my area where we have low 4800V distribution .

That will be the hard part and where technology will have to step in.

A cloud going over can certainly cause a noticeable drop in feeder voltage when the solar makes up more then 20% of the generation.

Ideally something in real time will have to prop the voltage backup up, and then back-off in equal magnitude and speed when cloud floats away.

 

[electrofelon]

NY is stingy about such stuff without any reason really.




Two things:

1) Wires don't care about the direction of power flow, and neither do transformers.

2) Many circuits have been upgraded with sensors and automatic switches/breakers making real time monitoring a breeze.


The subs won't care either. If you have have 1800KWs of generation being injected at various points on a circuit supply 2000KWs of customers the substation transformer will be much happier being loaded to 400kw instead of 2000kw.





That will be the hard part and where technology will have to step in.

A cloud going over can certainly cause a noticeable drop in feeder voltage when the solar makes up more then 20% of the generation.

Ideally something in real time will have to prop the voltage backup up, and then back-off in equal magnitude and speed when cloud floats away.

I know there is no general problem with power flowing the other way, as long as there isnt any "dumb" sensors in there thinking reverse power is a fault or other problem that needs to be disrupted. My thinking is that the line is designed with voltage drops in mind and the voltage regulators are not centered around the nominal voltage. Total conjecture on my part but it seems logical. Can system maintain nominal at no load or negative load?

I like those fault monitors. I have seen the second link before, its a good one. I ll dig into the third link in the morning.

 

[mbrooke]

I know there is no general problem with power flowing the other way, as long as there isnt any "dumb" sensors in there thinking reverse power is a fault or other problem that needs to be disrupted. My thinking is that the line is designed with voltage drops in mind and the voltage regulators are not centered around the nominal voltage. Total conjecture on my part but it seems logical. Can system maintain nominal at no load or negative load?

I like those fault monitors. I have seen the second link before, its a good one. I ll dig into the third link in the morning.

Yes- the system can maintain voltage at any load if designed and controlled to do so.


Protection will be major challenge with fuses and standard over current devices, which is why those sensors will will feed their information to microprocessor where they can apply for example differential protection which only responds to real faults and not to other conditions that may cause a fuse to under or over react.

 

[mbrooke]

I know there is no general problem with power flowing the other way, as long as there isnt any "dumb" sensors in there thinking reverse power is a fault or other problem that needs to be disrupted. My thinking is that the line is designed with voltage drops in mind and the voltage regulators are not centered around the nominal voltage. Total conjecture on my part but it seems logical. Can system maintain nominal at no load or negative load?

I like those fault monitors. I have seen the second link before, its a good one. I ll dig into the third link in the morning.

I'm sure you've seen this, but in case you haven't how one of those censors are installed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX_DuWSv924


Sensor data will feed into intelligent electronic devices such as these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaq2pR1BkIE


Everything will communicate with one another allowing for ultra high speed clearing of faults and 100% selective coordination. If a recloser CT senses 300amps, it will know if those 300amps are coming from a solar farm or from a tree in the line without any guesswork.

A drop in voltage from cloud cover will signal micro turbines close by to ramp up their voltage accordingly, ect.