Pool bond with mesh and concrete question

[ritelec]

The pool man is a friend. He gave the job to the town electrician. It's ok. He will be bonding I guess.
Here's the question. He will have 4 inch concrete poured. He will be using the 8 x 8 steal mesh in the pour.
The type you get in there and pull up during the pour.

The inspector wants the cu and mesh standing 1 inch off the ground before the pour

I'm not around the book but 3 inches down for the bond keeps entering my head

Is this what he's looking to see.

Should the inspector be concerned about the mesh or just the cooper or both?

Has anyone else had experience with this bond wire and a 4" deep pour.

Thank you

 

[ritelec]

just got in.

Opened to 680.26(B)(2)(5) is that right lol. 4"

conductor shall be secured within or under the perimter surface 4 in. to 6 in.below the subgrade.


where's the subgrade?

4 to 6 below the top of the concrete or 4 to 6 below (sub)?

I'm pretty sure when pavers go down that are about 3 or 4 inches the wire just lays on the ground.

 

[ritelec]

I'm thinking here.

Shouldn't the mesh be part of the build and have nothing to do with the surface bonding?


I mean, should the 8 solid be on the dirt or stone and maybe even staked down, then the mesh laid on top of it and then pulled up into the pour as they're pouring and the copper 8 stays down?

Also. Should the 8 tie into the mesh at certain intervals? I see nothing about that.

What is the difference if the copper is laying on the ground 4 " down and theres dirt on top. Or if the copper is laying on the ground 4" down and there are pavers sitting on it. Or if the copper is laying on the dirt or stone 4 " down and theres a concrete block with wire mesh sitting on it ?

Thank you

 

[ritelec]

One more than I'll wait for a response.

4 to 6 inches if I read it right, the copper can be an inch or two under the pour and the mesh and concrete are completely different.

Am I right thinking this way

 

[augie47]

Locally, if you are using mesh, the mesh sections are bonded together and a #8 bare is bonded to the mesh and the pool reinforcing at the 4 corners.
Most of folks here do that bonding with split bolts, but I don't see where that is Code required.
The 4-6" below sub-grade comes into play when using the alternate method to the steel rod or mesh.

 

[ritelec]

The 4-6" below sub-grade comes into play when using the alternate method to the steel rod or mesh.

Thanks Augie,

Sorry, I don't understand. Alternate method?

4-6" down. could the # 8 be at 5 or 6 then the pour above it for the 4 "?

 

[augie47]

680.26(B)(2) {'08} gives you 2 methods of bonding the perimeter surface:
(a) The structural steel such as re-bar/grid and (b) a #8 bare installed as prescribed.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with Gus. The mesh is a separate issue and needs to be bonded but if the pool is non conductive then you can run a #8 bond around the perimeter of the tub that is 18-24 inches from the inside wall of the tub and 4-6 inches below subgrade. Subgrade IMO is the dirt or whatever below the concrete or pavers etc.

We usually encircle the pool bug the ends together and leave a tail to reach the motor and the mesh. We just did the equipotential bonding for a hot tub with the same setup.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It is anyones guess what subgrade means. I stated what I think. If the tub sits on the grass then I would go 4-6 in below the top of the grade.

 

[ritelec]

Thank you.
I opened my eyes and saw (b) alternate means.



So if there's (a) structural steal, that is considered to be perimeter bonding ? Yet we go around the pool with a solid 8 anyway? And although its mentioned in (2) the 3', why no mention of depth.
From what I understand the wire lays down then the pavers. Is there a number to show that.

As far as (b) as mentioned is the alternative with no structural steel. So that's place 4 to 6 ' "below subgrade" . so is that to the top or bottom of subgrade.
If subgrade was 8" thick, could you not be down 12 - 14" now?

And if (b), should that bring you back to bonding as in (B) (1) conductive pool shells which from what I understand is a rarity. That most shells have steal supports. So why even install a perimeter bond if (B) (2) (a) says the perimiter is bonded via the structure?

 

[Little Bill]

Thank you.
I opened my eyes and saw (b) alternate means.



So if there's (a) structural steal, that is considered to be perimeter bonding ? Yet we go around the pool with a solid 8 anyway? And although its mentioned in (2) the 3', why no mention of depth.

From what I understand the wire lays down then the pavers. Is there a number to show that.

As far as (b) as mentioned is the alternative with no structural steel. So that's place 4 to 6 ' "below subgrade" . so is that to the top or bottom of subgrade.
If subgrade was 8" thick, could you not be down 12 - 14" now?

And if (b), should that bring you back to bonding as in (B) (1) conductive pool shells which from what I understand is a rarity. That most shells have steal supports. So why even install a perimeter bond if (B) (2) (a) says the perimiter is bonded via the structure?

If there is structural steel there is usually rebar. The rebar is the perimeter bond if it goes out from the pool far enough. If not, then you encircle the pool and bond to the steel at the four points mentioned.

One inspector here will allow on a couple inches below sub grade if pavers are going down. He says the bottom of the pavers is considered the sub grade, the pavers are usually 4" think, so that gives you the 6" below sub grade.

 

[GoldDigger]

Don't you mean that 2" down plus 4" thick pavers puts you 6" below the finish grade?
If top of subgrade is bottom of pavers, then 2" below the pavers is just 2" below subgrade.

Tapatalk!

 

[ritelec]

Don't you mean that 2" down plus 4" thick pavers puts you 6" below the finish grade?
If top of subgrade is bottom of pavers, then 2" below the pavers is just 2" below subgrade.

Tapatalk!

Is there any reference to below finish grade.
I'm not seeing or getting the answer that says put a #8 wire 18 to 24 " away from the pool edge, lay some pavers on top and your good to go.

:?

 

[ritelec]

If there is structural steel there is usually rebar. The rebar is the perimeter bond if it goes out from the pool far enough. If not, then you encircle the pool and bond to the steel at the four points mentioned.

One inspector here will allow on a couple inches below sub grade if pavers are going down. He says the bottom of the pavers is considered the sub grade, the pavers are usually 4" think, so that gives you the 6" below sub grade.

I think I'm getting it. Except that would be 2" blow sub grade and 6" below finished grade.
Would that not then be wrong?
K, Maybe I don't get it.

 

[augie47]

Is there any reference to below finish grade.
I'm not seeing or getting the answer that says put a #8 wire 18 to 24 " away from the pool edge, lay some pavers on top and your good to go.

:?

IMO, that would not be compliant. To me it is an example where the bare wire would need to be 4 to 6 inches below sub-grade.
As mentioned previously the term sub-grade causes some problems.
In the situation you describe, most local inspectors would call for the wire to be
4-6" in the earth prior to the pavers being placed on top,.

 

[ritelec]

IMO, that would not be compliant. To me it is an example where the bare wire would need to be 4 to 6 inches below sub-grade.
As mentioned previously the term sub-grade causes some problems.
In the situation you describe, most local inspectors would call for the wire to be
4-6" in the earth prior to the pavers being placed on top,.

so this should be a no-go

 

[Dennis Alwon]

so this should be a no-go

IMO that is a no go.... The idea is to make contact with the earth in case there is stray voltage. In reality it may not make a difference but that IMO is not compliant.

 

[augie47]

There may be little logic to it, but in this area, that would be acceptable for poured concrete but not for individual pavers.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

As stated if there is structural steel or rebar in the concrete walkway then you can bond the rebar if it extends 18-24 inches out.

Interestingly enough if the grid pictured about was made into 12x12 network of copper then you could bond that and it does not appear you need to be 4-6 inches below subgrade

 

[ritelec]

So to this no go?

Augie. Why in your area would it be good in

Denise you mentioned no go then go.