Pool Bonding

[Ken9876]

How long has it been in the NEC to properly bond a pool? I've been in this trade for 6yrs and its had to be done as long as I know. I ask because I'm going to be installing a time clock and rewiring a pool pump for a customer and there doesn't appear to be any bonding at the pump. How would you handle this?

 

[zz28]

Re: Pool Bonding

Ken,
Local inspector tells me to drive a seperat ground rod AT THE PUMP. Hope this helps.

 

[roger]

Re: Pool Bonding

The local inspector is an idiot. Ask him what he thinks a ground rod will do, or does in this situation and come back and let us know what he says.

Bonding is to keep all items at equal potential and has nothing to do with earthing.

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Pool Bonding

Originally posted by zz28:
Ken,
Local inspector tells me to drive a seperat ground rod AT THE PUMP. Hope this helps.

What state are you in?

Your inspector is in the state of Confusion!

 

[wbalsam1]

Re: Pool Bonding

An inspector who has you drive a ground rod at a pool to "bond" a pool motor, by ignorance is quietly saying to Mr. Lightning "Strike right here, Buddy"!

In New York State, there is not demonstration of competence required at the state level for electrical inspectors. Thank goodness there is at least licensing required for fire alarm installers, (that was brought about from a grass-roots level by the fire alarm installers' industry). Some, but not many communities require certification from the IAEI tests on 1 & 2 family, Electrical General, and Plan Review, but all too few.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Pool Bonding

Originally posted by zz28:
Ken,
Local inspector tells me to drive a separate ground rod AT THE PUMP. Hope this helps.

I am going to guess this is inspector UF pool pump. What a disgrace. This is a guy that is supposed to be enforcing the NEC for public safety.
Don't believe everything an inspector tells you.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Pool Bonding

The windings of the motor are insulated from the motor case or enclosure and the neutral
if 120 volts is floating or also insulated from the ground at this point also.
You can have as many ground rods on the equipment ground as you want.

But you can only bond the neutral to this ground at only one location.And that is the
closest point to the main Disc.

Driving a grounding rod at the pump would help take the high voltage lightning strike to
ground at that point,having a ground rod there would help more than hurt.

The current in your electrical system is trying to find the other polarity.

Lightning is from a natural weather event it is trying to find the ground, why do you want it to
got back through your electrical system to get to it? It would just do more damage.

This is just my view on the subject.

 

[Will Wire]

Re: Pool Bonding

I worked on the improperly bonded motors of a pool only once. I informed my electrical inspector that the motors were not properly bonded. He informed me and the homeowner that he would not inspect the job until the equipment was properly bonded. He required that #8 copper was run from the rebar of the pool to the motors. Luckily the homeowner did not make me responsible for the repair. Now whenever I get a call from someone with a pool the first thing I do is walk to the pool equipment to see if its properly bonded. If its not properly bonded I inform the homeowner. If they wont have it properly bonded I refuse the work. I was also told that pools have always been required to be bonded.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Pool Bonding

Originally posted by ronaldrc:
The windings of the motor are insulated from the motor case or enclosure and the neutral
if 120 volts is floating or also insulated from the ground at this point also.
You can have as many ground rods on the equipment ground as you want.

But you can only bond the neutral to this ground at only one location.And that is the
closest point to the main Disc.

Driving a grounding rod at the pump would help take the high voltage lightning strike to
ground at that point,having a ground rod there would help more than hurt.

The current in your electrical system is trying to find the other polarity.

Lightning is from a natural weather event it is trying to find the ground, why do you want it to
got back through your electrical system to get to it? It would just do more damage.

This is just my view on the subject.

Ronald my point is that the inspector is telling people to drive a ground rod at the pool location. It is neither necessary nor required. I don't think having a ground rod near your pool pump is going to do much protect your electrical system from a lightnig strike. Having seen the effects of lightning I know it will go anywhere and everywhere with no real rhyme or reason.

[ August 07, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Pool Bonding

We have talked about this idea of a ground rod at a pool pump several times and I have never supported the idea of it being mandatory.And I agree with everyone else even Roger about a rod at the pool with all rebar and metal already in the ground it isn't worth a hill of beans.

Now the pool pump the reason I don't is just because I agree with what you said about lightning.I have made many repairs on installations and equipment that has been hit by lightning and it never follows logical thinking. Normally when I go over the damage it makes no sense what so ever what it did and the route it took.

But our inspector requires a grounding rod at pool pumps and if its not there the job is turned down.Could be he agrees with us but if the pump warranty calls for it you need to put one there.

This has nothing to do with the clearing a fault by kicking a breaker and Roger knows this.It is placed there for supplemental lightning protection to route the energy of the lightning strike to the earth at that point and not travel down the conductors to the service and do even more damage.Every situation is different.

I can not in all honesty say that it doesn't help and I sure am not going to call someone an idiot because he believes what in my opinion makes sense.

I no most of you are calling me an idiot right now but I can care less, because you don't have the answer either.

 

[mvannevel]

Re: Pool Bonding

The point here is not whether or not a ground rod at the pump makes sense or not, it's that a ground rod at the pump doesn't satisfy the requirements for pool bonding in Article 680. Bottom line. The code also doesn't require the bonding conductor to be run all the way back to the service panel or distribution panel that feeds the pool equipment, but it doesn't prevent it either. The long and short of it here is that the pool is not bonded correctly whether or not there is a ground rod driven at the pump.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Pool Bonding

My inspector or myself never have said it had anything to do with bonding at the pump,it is there for lightning protection..

He requires the system being bonded as per NEC.

 

[roger]

Re: Pool Bonding

Hello Ronald, the problem is you and I are not talking about the same thing here.

I'm talking about Bonding for Equipotential and have no concern with some one earthing this pump or anything else associated with this pool, but let it be known that doing so can increase the danger around this pool if the Equipotential Bonding is absent from the installation.

I'm not concerned with dispersing lightning or even an Equipment Grounding Conductor for OCPD operation.

What I'm concerned with, is as I said in my earlier post,

to keep all items at equal potential

Go to the graphic and energize all the surfaces shown with 120 v and tell me where the danger is if all these surfaces are equal. This is the sole purpose of bonding around a pool and all the earthing in the world will not take the place of this bonding.

Roger

 

[roger]

Re: Pool Bonding

Ronald I was typing (slowly) while you posted.

The first post is talking about no bonding, the second posters reply seems to imply that his local inspector simply requires a ground rod and if this is the case, I still think he's an idiot.

Roger

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Pool Bonding

Roger

I know if I argued with my inspector that the rod made no sense his reply to others about me would be hes an idiot. And I get called worse things than that daily.

I honestly can not say it would not help.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Pool Bonding

Originally posted by ronaldrc:

But our inspector requires a grounding rod at pool pumps and if its not there the job is turned down.Could be he agrees with us but if the pump warranty calls for it you need to put one there.

This has nothing to do with the clearing a fault by kicking a breaker and Roger knows this.It is placed there for supplemental lightning protection to route the energy of the lightning strike to the earth at that point and not travel down the conductors to the service and do even more damage.Every situation is different.

I can not in all honesty say that it doesn't help and I sure am not going to call someone an idiot because he believes what in my opinion makes sense.

I no most of you are calling me an idiot right now but I can care less, because you don't have the answer either.

I am not calling you an idiot. I am however calling the inspector an idiot. No lighting protection for a pool means no passing inspection? What code does your area enforce? Obviously not the NEC. Do you really believe that a lightning strike in that area will go directly to a measly little eight foot ground rod and silently disperse into the ground affecting nothing else?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Pool Bonding

Do you really believe that a lightning strike in that area will go directly to a measly little eight foot ground rod and silently disperse into the ground affecting nothing else?

Not at all. I believe that the lighting would divide itself up over the total bonding grid and the rod would have little or no effect.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Pool Bonding

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Do you really believe that a lightning strike in that area will go directly to a measly little eight foot ground rod and silently disperse into the ground affecting nothing else?

Not at all. I believe that the lighting would divide itself up over the total bonding grid and the rod would have little or no effect.

I don't believe you have any effective control over where a lightning strike goes. You can try to direct it to go where you want it, but it has a tendancy to do as it damn well pleases, regardless of your best intentions.

High frequency electrical events like this just do not work the way you are used to seeing them work at 60Hz. Lightning is more like an RF event than a 60 Hz power event. What may be a perfectly good path to earth at 60 Hz, may be a near open circuit to lightning.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Pool Bonding

In the original post it was said

there doesn't appear to be any bonding at the pump

Which ZZ28 replied

Local inspector tells me to drive a separate ground rod AT THE PUMP. Hope this helps

Installing a rod at the pump to take the place of the EPBG that is missing will not provide the low impedance path required to prevent a voltage difference between metal parts of the pool. I agree with Roger:

The local inspector is an idiot

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Pool Bonding

Ken9876
How long has it been in the NEC to properly bond a pool? I've been in this trade for 6yrs and its had to be done as long as I know. I ask because I'm going to be installing a time clock and rewiring a pool pump for a customer and there doesn't appear to be any bonding at the pump. How would you handle this?

zz28
Local inspector tells me to drive a seperat ground rod AT THE PUMP. Hope this helps.

roger
The local inspector is an idiot. Ask him what he thinks a ground rod will do, or does in this situation and come back and let us know what he says.

Bonding is to keep all items at equal potential and has nothing to do with earthing.

ronaldrc
But our inspector requires a grounding rod at pool pumps and if its not there the job is turned down.Could be he agrees with us but if the pump warranty calls for it you need to put one there.

These are quoted in the order they where posted.
I do believe that we have two inspectors that are idiots and are over stepping their authority. I see two inspectors that needs to lose their jobs.

Roger posted a illustration on the correct way to bond a pool. I don?t see a ground rod anywhere in this illustration. I feel in my heart that should a ground rod serve any good at a pool then in the 108 year history of the code the NFPA would have mandated that a rod be installed. There must be a reason why it is not mandated.

ronaldrc
Roger

I know if I argued with my inspector that the rod made no sense his reply to others about me would be hes an idiot. And I get called worse things than that daily.

I honestly can not say it would not help.

I think that the absence of it being required is proof enough to make the statement it does not help.
Your defense to the derogatory words of the inspector is printed in the big red book. The first time he calls you an idiot take him to his superiors for slander. Get this idiot fired before he injects his opinion in a matter that ends up with someone hurt.