Pool deck area heating

Status
Not open for further replies.
mwm1752

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
The situation I 've been asked about is --- the pool deck will have drains for shed water, the pool drain piping is to be a PVC material, the contractor has been asked to install an 240v deicing heat cable in the piping, & now the NEC does not require circuits to be pool associated outside of 5'of waters edge.
I really can't justify 680.27(C)(3) as the cables do not meet the embedded requirement/or do they?
Violation? Hazard?? or just wrong???

680.27 Specialized Pool Equipment.
(C) Deck Area Heating. The provisions of this section shall apply to all pool deck areas, including a covered pool, where electrically operated comfort heating units are installed within 6.0 m (20 ft) of the inside wall of the pool.
(3) Radiant Heating Cables Not Permitted. Radiant heating cables embedded in or below the deck shall not be permitted.
 
mwm1752 said:
The situation I 've been asked about is --- the pool deck will have drains for shed water, the pool drain piping is to be a PVC material, the contractor has been asked to install an 240v deicing heat cable in the piping, & now the NEC does not require circuits to be pool associated outside of 5'of waters edge.
I really can't justify 680.27(C)(3) as the cables do not meet the embedded requirement/or do they?
Violation? Hazard?? or just wrong???.
Click to expand...


You are right it's not a violation because the cables are not embedded.

Maybe a hazard, but that depends how easy it is for someone to come into contact with the heat cables and other parts of the electrical installation.

Just wrong? That's the big question. What if, instead of around a pool in pvc, the heat tape was installed in a metal gutter and downspout at an elementary school or daycare? At least around the pool you have a bonding grid.
 
ActionDave said:
You are right it's not a violation because the cables are not embedded.

Maybe a hazard, but that depends how easy it is for someone to come into contact with the heat cables and other parts of the electrical installation.

Just wrong? That's the big question. What if, instead of around a pool in pvc, the heat tape was installed in a metal gutter and downspout at an elementary school or daycare? At least around the pool you have a bonding grid.
Click to expand...

It is still a violation if it is below.


"Radiant heating cables embedded in or below the deck shall not be permitted."
 
What's the heat cables purpose? If its purpose is to keep the pipes from freezing I wouldn't really call it radiant heating cable

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
kwired said:
Op says heat cable is in the piping.

I would assume this means it can be pulled out and repaired or replaced if necessary without the need to destroy the decking.
Click to expand...

I don't think the issue of accessible to repair is the issue. Anyone know what the CMP thought on this one?
 
As I read the code section I say it is not compliant to have the heating cable below the deck even if it is in pvc conduit. I am not sure that is the intent however if the cable should fail and leak to ground- assuming it can just as water can usually get inside the conduit, then there is a potential for an accident.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
As I read the code section I say it is not compliant to have the heating cable below the deck even if it is in pvc conduit. I am not sure that is the intent however if the cable should fail and leak to ground- assuming it can just as water can usually get inside the conduit, then there is a potential for an accident.
Click to expand...
Embedded is the key word here.

Presuming this is a heat cable ran inside the drain piping just to keep it clear so it can drain - something that likely isn't even in use (or doesn't need to be anyway) when weather is suitable to place the pool in service. If one can keep it at least 5 feet from the pool - even less of an issue IMO.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
As I read the code section I say it is not compliant to have the heating cable below the deck even if it is in pvc conduit. I am not sure that is the intent however if the cable should fail and leak to ground- assuming it can just as water can usually get inside the conduit, then there is a potential for an accident.
Click to expand...

I would agree here. The intent is not to have such around a pool deck in any case. These cables are required to be 30ma EPD type breakers not GFCI. I wonder why there is just not a additional requirement for GFCI protection as in other wet areas.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
As I read the code section I say it is not compliant to have the heating cable below the deck even if it is in pvc conduit. I am not sure that is the intent however if the cable should fail and leak to ground- assuming it can just as water can usually get inside the conduit, then there is a potential for an accident.
Click to expand...

Sierrasparky said:
I would agree here. The intent is not to have such around a pool deck in any case. These cables are required to be 30ma EPD type breakers not GFCI. I wonder why there is just not a additional requirement for GFCI protection as in other wet areas.
Click to expand...

Do you guys know how to read? The code reference clearly says embedded in or below the pool deck. A heat tape in a gutter is not embedded. Heat mats get embedded, heat tape does not.
 
Sierrasparky said:
I would agree here. The intent is not to have such around a pool deck in any case. These cables are required to be 30ma EPD type breakers not GFCI. I wonder why there is just not a additional requirement for GFCI protection as in other wet areas.
Click to expand...
Because GFCI is for people protection, and the majority of the risk seems to be associated with cord and plug connected equipment and the reason why the majority of GFCI protection that is required involves receptacle outlets. Used to mostly just be 15/20 amp 125 volt receptacles, but good or bad, 2017 has gone with more then just 120 volt receptacles for the general requirements now, but still mostly only for receptacle outlets.

Keep in mind the "radiant heating cable" mentioned in the code section quoted is referring to radiant cable in the deck that is intended to be a space heating cable or at least deicing of the deck. What OP is installing is described as de-icing cable and is only de-icing the drainage piping.

Probably still not a good idea to install if closer then 5 feet from the pool.

If conditions are calling for it to function is anyone using the pool? Does the pool even have water in it in such conditions? Some do leave water in the pool through the winter anymore - but also have a cover over it making it unusable.
 
ActionDave said:
Do you guys know how to read? The code reference clearly says embedded in or below the pool deck. A heat tape in a gutter is not embedded. Heat mats get embedded, heat tape does not.
Click to expand...

Yea we can read. It is a difference in opinion.

Not all electric radiant heat is done with a mat. There are mats and there are cables that can be embedded in concrete. If the pipe is embedded below the deck and there is a heat cable within , it can be interpreted as being not code compliant. Without the CMP reasoning we won't know.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Yea we can read. It is a difference in opinion.

Not all electric radiant heat is done with a mat. There are mats and there are cables that can be embedded in concrete. If the pipe is embedded below the deck and there is a heat cable within , it can be interpreted as being not code compliant. Without the CMP reasoning we won't know.
Click to expand...
At same time is still interpretation unless code would get changed to clarify.

If kept 5 feet from the pool I still don't see a problem at all. Less than that is questionable.
 
I'm going to go with the "radiant" part not being met by the heat tape in the pipe. Radiant heating is designed to heat up a surface through conduction, raising the surface temperature, so that heat is then radiated away through the air. If the heat tape is in the pipe, and the intent is just to keep the pipe above freezing, it is not radiant heat.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
I'm going to go with the "radiant" part not being met by the heat tape in the pipe. Radiant heating is designed to heat up a surface through conduction, raising the surface temperature, so that heat is then radiated away through the air. If the heat tape is in the pipe, and the intent is just to keep the pipe above freezing, it is not radiant heat.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...
Better explanation then my earlier attempt.:thumbsup:
 
wwhitney said:
I'm going to go with the "radiant" part not being met by the heat tape in the pipe. Radiant heating is designed to heat up a surface through conduction, raising the surface temperature, so that heat is then radiated away through the air. If the heat tape is in the pipe, and the intent is just to keep the pipe above freezing, it is not radiant heat.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

:thumbsup: From me too.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Yea we can read. It is a difference in opinion.

Not all electric radiant heat is done with a mat. There are mats and there are cables that can be embedded in concrete. If the pipe is embedded below the deck and there is a heat cable within , it can be interpreted as being not code compliant. Without the CMP reasoning we won't know.
Click to expand...
We don't need to find out anybody's reasoning, we just need use words according to their meanings,

Definition of embedded. 1 : occurring as a grammatical constituent (such as a verb phrase or clause) within a like constituent. 2 : enclosed closely in or as if in a matrix : set firmly into a mass or material.

to fix into a surrounding mass: to embed stones in cement

to enclose closely in or as if in a matrix; to make something an integral part of.

A piece of heat tape pulled into a piece of PVC is not embedded in the pool deck any more than wires pulled in conduit are embedded underground or in buildings.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top