Pool Grounding

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larrymoschiano

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Does the insulated ground have to come from the main breaker on an extended service through the attic to the panel board, and then to the pool panel board, or is 680.25B stating that the insulated ground in pipe is coming from the panel board to the pool panel. The Mike Holt tape on 680.25B is unclear to my inspectors
 
Re: Pool Grounding

In a new installation any feeder that is to supply a pool must be installed in a raceway and have an insulated equipment grounding conductor that terminates in the service equipment.

In an existing installation the installation will not need to be upgraded to meet this requirement as long as the existing installation has a separate equipment grounding conductor.
An installation to a remote building that does not include an equipment grounding as allowed in 250.32(B)(2) will not be allowed to supply a pool.

Code enforcement officials should take caution that some electricians will try to use this rule to install a feeder to a remote building for the installation of a pool at a later date. This should not be allowed.
:)
 
Re: Pool Grounding

That happens quite often here. Many builders have their contractors pre-wire for a pool in the future. That is great except on many occasions, SER is used for the main power feeder in the dwelling. Sometimes this pool gets permitted and starts being built before the C/O is provided from the home.

Per our administrative code, the home is not existing and therefor, all pool wiring will have to comply with the provisions of 680.25. This means the SER cannot be used, though it is existing.
 
Re: Pool Grounding

If the permit for the remote panelboard is pulled before the permit is pulled for the pool or spa, it is existing. They are 2 separate applications. It doesn't matter if 1 day separates the 2 applications(permits). Eventhough I agree with what you are saying, it is a loophole in my eyes and I despise nothing more than a loophole. It has been used on me numerous times and legally, there is nothing that can be done about it, even if SER is used. The ground will have an outer covering, the jacket itself. 680.25 Exception.

Wait until a balsy G.C. or H.O. has their attny subpena you, your chief, and the AHJ. The judge doesn't care about anything but facts. Fact of when the panel permit was issued, fact of when the permit was issued for the new application(spa/pool), and fact you are wasting his time having that crap brought into their court, and wasting the taxpayers money.
 
Re: Pool Grounding

Just to give you an example of my butt being chapped by this method.

I walk into a H.O. basement that included a subpanel on the RI. I walk outside and see a new hot tub. The H.O. didn't have a SPA/Hot Tub marked on his permit. We keep very accurate layouts of all houses and what are contained within/outside of them. I found that the hot tub was wired off of the subpanel. I asked the H.O. if he had a permit for this, he replied no. I explained to him the hot tub was an accessory to the dwelling and needed a permit if not included in the current permit and feeder was not correct for the hot tub and needed changed. I gave him a choice of getting a permit for the hot tub or removing it to rid any penalties further due for doing additional work not permitted. The H.O. had his electrician get a permit for the hot tub. I rejected it again due to the SER not being removed.

The EC contacted me and I explained about the permit not containing the hot tub, then the permit being pulled, eventhough both applications were under construction at the same time.

Being the nice guy that I am (patting myself on the back :D )and trying to ensure no complications would arise from the hot tub not being on there, or even flagging the entire job until a permit was issued, and waiving all penalties if they comply. I was then hit right upside the head with "existing". The H.O. and the EC were showing no exchange of mercy as they intended on sueing for damages since the job was delayed and I was costing them money. Our attnys said we had no case to counter, since I gave them options.

From there on, I manually enter the hot tub into their plans and permits to close that loophole of an uninsulated EGC. Since then, there have been other methods introduced to work around the insulated EGC, which I will not further disclose any information.

BTW, I was even told in another thread that I was advocating a loophole, therefore, I deleted my post. Not this time.

[ February 28, 2006, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
 
Re: Pool Grounding

Why is an uninsulated ground safe it it is existing yet a hazard if installed new?
 
Re: Pool Grounding

That would be best answered by the committee that wrote that POS exception into that article. I use the term POS as my personal opinion, as it has left a bad taste in my mouth over time. One EC does it, gets away with it, tells another, and they tell another. Before you know it, everyone knows about "beating the system" and wants a piece of the pie.

Were they trying to save somebody money? :eek:
 
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