Pool pump disconnect

Status
Not open for further replies.

nizak

Senior Member
Can a circuit breaker located in a exterior sub panel serve as the disconnecting means for a 2 hp
Pool pump motor?

The 3R enclosure is capable of being locked and is within sight of the pump.

The chart that shows disconnecting means lists appliances.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Can a circuit breaker located in a exterior sub panel serve as the disconnecting means for a 2 hp
Pool pump motor?

The 3R enclosure is capable of being locked and is within sight of the pump.

The chart that shows disconnecting means lists appliances.

Yes, but you cannot lock it, otherwise how could it be used as a disco? or you mean lockable for use as a lock-out?
it must also be within sight and no closer than 5ft (but check the code to verify again).

is the pump the only thing needing power, or are you splitting off some 120v bc's from the sub?


if it's just pool pump, put gfci in main, then use a simple blade disco out near the pump.

I like these Siemens LNF222R discos, has lockout if needed, but acts as a very ez disco to use. time is everything when it comes to removing power in an emergency. so i lock the door itself to keep hands out, but the lever stays unlocked, etc. it also keeps wet hands away from power, wet pool people/hands on a ocpd is too close to power for my liking. also, no door to deal with to cut power.

so, if you have a sub and need that, i use the LNF along side the sub, then i lock the sub door to keep hands off. the disco then serves as a complete shutoff to everything. i find this better then allowing a sub that has multiple breakers to be used as disco, because the person trying to do disco may not know what ocpd to turn off, or leave others on. pool stuff, i like having everything turn off from the "emergency" disco, etc.

i myself have the LNF + 4 slot sub, (2) 120's and (1) 240, all gfci. the main is a std breaker
 
Last edited:

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Can a circuit breaker located in a exterior sub panel serve as the disconnecting means for a 2 hp
Pool pump motor?

The 3R enclosure is capable of being locked and is within sight of the pump.

The chart that shows disconnecting means lists appliances.

As long as the cb is within sight and 50' or less from the pump then you are good. No need to lock the panel.
 

nizak

Senior Member
I can't see where the disconnect has to be visible from the body of water.

It has to be visible from the pump motor it's disconnecting.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
this is not 100% accurate. it has to be visible from the body of water. so x-feet or less, but not hidden behind a bush or wall, etc.


The disconnect is for the pump not the water. The disconnect must not be more than 50' from the pump and within sight of the pump. I stand by my original statement.

I also said within sight
 

journeyman0217

Senior Member
Location
philadelphia,pa
The disconnect is for the pump not the water. The disconnect must not be more than 50' from the pump and within sight of the pump. I stand by my original statement.

I also said within sight

I agree with you Dennis. Also, being that this motor is over one horse power wouldn't it also have to have a separate overload protection?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I agree with you Dennis. Also, being that this motor is over one horse power wouldn't it also have to have a separate overload protection?
Not familiar with what is common with pool pumps, but there are general use motors of 10 HP that have internal overload protection, so it is possible the motor can have internal protection, if it does you shouldn't need to provide any other overload protection.
 

journeyman0217

Senior Member
Location
philadelphia,pa
Not familiar with what is common with pool pumps, but there are general use motors of 10 HP that have internal overload protection, so it is possible the motor can have internal protection, if it does you shouldn't need to provide any other overload protection.


Yeah, I actually just looked at a 1hp pool pump motor and it has internal thermal protection which is allowed as the overload protection per code...
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
The disconnect is for the pump not the water. The disconnect must not be more than 50' from the pump and within sight of the pump. I stand by my original statement.

I also said within sight

sorry, i quoted 680.41, "visible to users", but for tubs/spas, but it does say "in other than single fam dwelling", i am tad baffled as to why 680.41 says "other than singe fam dwelling". why is the emergency disco less important for a single fam dwelling?

680.13 only addresses maintenance disco.

does 680 address emergency shutoff for pools?


I still install the LNF222R in a location that is visible to users, regardless of single fam dwelling, or its a pool or spa.

*******************
i dont like the notes made in this MH doc
see http://www.mikeholt.com/download.ph...80_Pools_and_Similar_Installations_PART_2.pdf

he notes that the spa emergency cutoff can be from the older 680.12 (2017 680.13), but for a spa that has it's pump(s) say located in another room or far away, the emergency disco is no longer visible to the users.
 
Last edited:

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
sorry, i quoted 680.41, "visible to users", but for tubs/spas, but it does say "in other than single fam dwelling"

680.13 only addresses maintenance disco.

does 680 address emergency shutoff for pools?


I still install the LNF222R in a location that is visible to users, regardless of single fam dwelling, or its a pool or spa.
in other then single family dwelling users won't have access or even know where disconnecting means is - they need to be able to shut the spa pump off, if anything just so the water will calm down enough to see what may be in the water - you don't have that problem with a pool as the water isn't so agitated and full of air bubbles like a spa is. I think there also used to be issues with people being sucked up to pump inlets and not being able to get away - but for the most part I think that problem has been lessened with different requirements for inlet openings.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
in other then single family dwelling users won't have access or even know where disconnecting means is - they need to be able to shut the spa pump off, if anything just so the water will calm down enough to see what may be in the water - you don't have that problem with a pool as the water isn't so agitated and full of air bubbles like a spa is. I think there also used to be issues with people being sucked up to pump inlets and not being able to get away - but for the most part I think that problem has been lessened with different requirements for inlet openings.

Ok, fair enough, but using 680.12 (680.13) as a emergency disco for tub/spa?? that makes no sense.

but note my Q, why is visible emergency disco to a spa less important (not required) if its a single fam dwelling?
 
Last edited:

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ok, fair enough, but using 680.12 (680.13) as a emergency disco for tub/spa?? that makes no sense.

but note my Q, why is visible emergency disco to a spa less important (not required) if its a single fam dwelling?
It is not an emergency disconnect.

"A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system..."

At non dwellings many of the users may not be familiar with the controls, should a situation arise where it needs turned off?
 

Craigv

Senior Member
Ok, fair enough, but using 680.12 (680.13) as a emergency disco for tub/spa?? that makes no sense.

but note my Q, why is visible emergency disco to a spa less important (not required) if its a single fam dwelling?

It's only marginally less important to have an emergency disconnect because a typical home spa has a much less powerful pump system. The disconnect rule came following several publicized incidents of people, mostly children, drowning in commercial spa because they became stuck to the inlets, and at least one had her hair drawn in and couldn't surface. Changes to inlet designs plus the disconnect rule followed.

Another difference is that residential spas typically have controls located right on the top edge of the tub. I haven't encountered a commercial tub set up this way. I would like to see the shutoff button bigger, (or add a shutoff, as many use a single button to toggle the various pumps on and off) but it's still quite easy to shut off the jets on a residential spa.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Another difference is that residential spas typically have controls located right on the top edge of the tub. I haven't encountered a commercial tub set up this way. I would like to see the shutoff button bigger, (or add a shutoff, as many use a single button to toggle the various pumps on and off) but it's still quite easy to shut off the jets on a residential spa.

I think you nailed it right there
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
I think you nailed it right there

my spa has flat keypad, no "buttons" per-say, but in an emergency i am not confident folks would know the diff between the button icons or how they work. my off button you have to hold for 3sec before the unit stops the pumps. there is no standard for what spa controls look like or how they function. given the wide variance on how controls look and function, i have a LNF222R close by and visible.

but 680.41 aside, why is it noted in the MH PDF in 680.41 that the emergency shutoff can be from 680.12 (or 2017 680.13).
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
my spa has flat keypad, no "buttons" per-say, but in an emergency i am not confident folks would know the diff between the button icons or how they work. my off button you have to hold for 3sec before the unit stops the pumps. there is no standard for what spa controls look like or how they function. given the wide variance on how controls look and function, i have a LNF222R close by and visible.

but 680.41 aside, why is it noted in the MH PDF in 680.41 that the emergency shutoff can be from 680.12 (or 2017 680.13).

All that mike is saying is that the emergency cutoff can be the same as the disconnect for the motor if it is within sight of the motor. The only difference would be that an emo switch would have to be labeled. It is kind of ridiculous if the emo switch was 50' away but it seems that is allowed.
 

Craigv

Senior Member
my spa has flat keypad, no "buttons" per-say, but in an emergency i am not confident folks would know the diff between the button icons or how they work. my off button you have to hold for 3sec before the unit stops the pumps. there is no standard for what spa controls look like or how they function. given the wide variance on how controls look and function, i have a LNF222R close by and visible.

but 680.41 aside, why is it noted in the MH PDF in 680.41 that the emergency shutoff can be from 680.12 (or 2017 680.13).

I agree that inconsistent controls are not conducive to good emergency response. But even a three second delayed "off" could be faster than a breaker or disco switch 50' from the spa. But someone both unfamiliar and panicked would possibly not hold a touchpad button for 3 seconds.

It's difficult to avoid feeling the lack of stronger regulations isn't more pandering to spa manufacturers, who would feel their sales might suffer if the aura of luxury and tranquil relaxation would be hurt by a BigRedOffButton slapped on the side of their Backyard Oasis 6000....
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I agree that inconsistent controls are not conducive to good emergency response. But even a three second delayed "off" could be faster than a breaker or disco switch 50' from the spa. But someone both unfamiliar and panicked would possibly not hold a touchpad button for 3 seconds.

It's difficult to avoid feeling the lack of stronger regulations isn't more pandering to spa manufacturers, who would feel their sales might suffer if the aura of luxury and tranquil relaxation would be hurt by a BigRedOffButton slapped on the side of their Backyard Oasis 6000....
True, but redesigning of pumping system inlets I believe has also greatly reduced the real need for an emergency off switch. At same time I don't see it being easy to convince a CMP to remove a safety feature from code. The dwelling exception to the rule likely has been there since a time when more common sense approach was taken for code making process.
 

Craigv

Senior Member
True, but redesigning of pumping system inlets I believe has also greatly reduced the real need for an emergency off switch. At same time I don't see it being easy to convince a CMP to remove a safety feature from code. The dwelling exception to the rule likely has been there since a time when more common sense approach was taken for code making process.

I doubt there will be any changes either, just stating my opinion that there is room for improvement. An instant "off" button on spa-side controls would be exceedingly easy and cheap for manufacturers to implement, rather than delayed or non-labeled pump controls.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top