pool, spa, hot tub disconnection means.

[Dennis Alwon]

680.12 states each means-- meaning each disconnect means-- which means --- possibly more than one. So for a pool, IMO you do not need a main breaker unless the panel is mounted remotely from the dwelling. This would bring 225.33 into play. If the MLO panel was used then the max of 6 handles could be used. In the 2014 code 225.36 has been changed which makes 225.33 okay for the 6 handle rule even if the panel is not suitable as service equipment-- in a new install

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means. One or more
means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors
shall be provided for all utilization equipment other
than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and
within sight from its equipment and shall be located at least
1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool,
spa, fountain, or hot tub unless separated from the open
water by a permanently installed barrier that provides a
1.5 m (5 ft) reach path or greater. This horizontal distance is
to be measured from the water?s edge along the shortest
path required to reach the disconnect.

 

[kwired]

I'd say within sight of the electrical control panel where one will be working on it. If above will not be within sight or control of the workman.

Emergency shut-offs are not required in SFR's

That is my vote, the disconnect is there primarily for someone working on the unit, not for the user.

Users in general are not going to think of finding the disconnecting means in an E-stop situation, but a clearly labeled E-stop gets a person's attention - but as you said is not even required in single family dwelling locations.

The hot tubs at places like hotels and resorts and other similar locations often are not "packaged units" and usually only have a start button and shut off on time delay, as well as an emergency stop button as the only controls for the user. A disconnect for maintenance is somewhat pointless near the tub as the pump or other equipment that a worker needs to be able to shut off/lock off is in a mechanical room somewhere.

 

[ritelec]

Why would a disconnect work? I have seen the spas that have a panel with individual breakers for the tub. If a non fused disconnect is added within sight then that will disconnect the power to the panel. If there are no gfci breakers in the panel supplied by the manufacturer then a disconnect with a dp gfci breaker is what you need and install it within sight.

What am I missing here

Thank you all.

Interesting that you mentioned the disconnect no less than five feet to be gfci if the tub didn't come with gfci. Do they require two?

On one I did (where the I installed the disconnect underneath by the access hatch and control panel) the inspector wanted the disconnect to be gfci as well as the gfci in the panel. I have never seen a requirement for two gfci's
Am I missing it ?

And when I installed the disconnect under the unit by the control panel (actually two tubs... One with only the panel gfci) it was +- 1995 Maybe that had something to do with the not less than 5' ?

 

[kwired]

Thank you all.

Interesting that you mentioned the disconnect no less than five feet to be gfci if the tub didn't come with gfci. Do they require two?

On one I did (where the I installed the disconnect underneath by the access hatch and control panel) the inspector wanted the disconnect to be gfci as well as the gfci in the panel. I have never seen a requirement for two gfci's
Am I missing it ?

And when I installed the disconnect under the unit by the control panel (actually two tubs... One with only the panel gfci) it was +- 1995 Maybe that had something to do with the not less than 5' ?

The disconnect does not need to contain a GFCI, the circuit supplying the tub does require GFCI, but it could be provided anywhere upstream from the local disconnecting means. Often the "Spa panels" with GFCI included is least expensive way to go and is therefore most popular choice.

 

[Sierrasparky]

So you are saying that the individual breakers will not suffice as a disconnecting means. That if there is a MB panel that a Disco needs to be added ahead of that.

I don't know a single AHJ that reads it that way.
However I could be wrong.

 

[iwire]

So you are saying that the individual breakers will not suffice as a disconnecting means.

Correct, they do not simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors.

That if there is a MB panel that a Disco needs to be added ahead of that.

Maybe, that would depend on the location of the main breaker relative to the pool or tub.

 

[kwired]

The disconnect does not need to contain a GFCI, the circuit supplying the tub does require GFCI, but it could be provided anywhere upstream from the local disconnecting means. Often the "Spa panels" with GFCI included is least expensive way to go and is therefore most popular choice.

I need to make a correction here, 680.44 says

Except as otherwise provided in this section, the outlet(s) that supplies a self-contained spa or hot tub, a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly, or a field-assembled spa or hot tub shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

So you are saying that the individual breakers will not suffice as a disconnecting means. That if there is a MB panel that a Disco needs to be added ahead of that.

I don't know a single AHJ that reads it that way.
However I could be wrong.

From 680.12

One or more means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and within sight from its equipment and shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool, spa, fountain, or hot tub unless separated from the open water by a permanently installed barrier that provides a 1.5 m (5 ft) reach path or greater.

Pool equipment that has more then one circuit does not need a single disconnect for all pool equipment that is what they mean with "one or more". It doesn't even state there must be a single disconnect per utilization equipment. When it comes to packaged spa units - maybe need to check with instructions as well.

680.44 I quoted above even suggests there may be more then one outlet - which possibly means more then one supply circuit, which would lead to more then one disconnecting means requried.

 

[ritelec]

Correct, they do not simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors.




Maybe, that would depend on the location of the main breaker relative to the pool or tub.

Okay. So I guess back on pools....pools....pools

Let me word it differently

If there is a pool with several motors and a heater, there has to be a disconnect for each motor and heater. There also has to be one disconnect that will disconnect all of those motors and heater disconnects with one throw ?

Is that correct?

And if so , are all the main lug panels with several breakers in them feeding pools wrong? They would need to be main breaker?

Not to beat a dead horse but it seams the question for pool (or tub) with several loads breaking all the ungrounded conductors simultaneously hasn't been answered (I think).

 

[kwired]

Okay. So I guess back on pools....pools....pools

Let me word it differently

If there is a pool with several motors and a heater, there has to be a disconnect for each motor and heater. There also has to be one disconnect that will disconnect all of those motors and heater disconnects with one throw ?

Is that correct?

And if so , are all the main lug panels with several breakers in them feeding pools wrong? They would need to be main breaker?

Not to beat a dead horse but it seams the question for pool (or tub) with several loads breaking all the ungrounded conductors simultaneously hasn't been answered (I think).

No, see my #27 post.

A panel in a separate structure may require a main disconnect or must meet the six disconnect rule but that is because of art 225 rules and the separate structure (or because there is service conductors supplying the structure) not because it is supplying pool equipment.

 

[ritelec]

Ok. I can understand that. Not battling this just wondering the one or more. Couldn't that be seen as switches wired in series like you would a boiler.

Would it read differently if simultaneously disconnect all was highlighted.?

Respectfully.

Thank you

 

[ritelec]

No, see my #27 post.

A panel in a separate structure may require a main disconnect or must meet the six disconnect rule but that is because of art 225 rules and the separate structure (or because there is service conductors supplying the structure) not because it is supplying pool equipment.

If you where to install a pool panel at a pool that was away from a house. Would you install a ground rod for that panel?

Bean reading around and some consider it a constructed structure or detached structure and a rod would be required.

Thank you

 

[iwire]

Okay. So I guess back on pools....pools....pools

I said pool or tub so I have no clue what you mean.

Let me word it differently

If there is a pool with several motors and a heater, there has to be a disconnect for each motor and heater. There also has to be one disconnect that will disconnect all of those motors and heater disconnects with one throw ?

No, not in that case unless they are one packaged unit like a typical hot tub.

Not to beat a dead horse but it seams the question for pool (or tub) with several loads breaking all the ungrounded conductors simultaneously hasn't been answered (I think).

What is it exactly are you asking about?

If the heaters, pumps and lights are all prewired on one skid like they are with a typical spa you need one main disconnect

If the heaters, pumps and lights are all wired individually in the field by the electrical contractor then each piece of equipment has to have its own disconnect.

The replies to this thread are trying to help you but you have been very unclear in what you are asking about.

 

[ritelec]

Wow. Thinking

If a ground rod was installed at that sub panel to go to the egc. Would that piece if Metal now be required to be bonded to the equipotential bonding grid ?

The metal at the equipment that needs bonding, would it need bonding if buried? Like a fully driven ground rod?

 

[kwired]

Ok. I can understand that. Not battling this just wondering the one or more. Couldn't that be seen as switches wired in series like you would a boiler.

Would it read differently if simultaneously disconnect all was highlighted.?

Respectfully.

Thank you

Switches installed in series for the boiler are likely done that way because each one is considered a emergency stop method of some sort and is required by other codes. Depending on arrangement of said switches they may or may not qualify as disconnecting means, but if they qualify - only one is necessary for NEC required disconnecting means - only one (probably closest one to equipment) would be the one you may need for 70E and may need to be lockable for the purpose of working on the equipment. I don't think it is common practice to have multiple switches on a single utilization equipment when it comes to pool equipment, and for pools at dwellings you are limited to just a pump in many instances being the only equipment, sections I mentioned above don't apply to lighting circuits.

If you where to install a pool panel at a pool that was away from a house. Would you install a ground rod for that panel?

Bean reading around and some consider it a constructed structure or detached structure and a rod would be required.

Thank you

Panel away from the house needs to comply with chapters 1-4 whether it supplies pool equipment or not. 250.50 generally requires a grounding electrode system at each structure.

 

[ritelec]

Correct, they do not simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors.




Maybe, that would depend on the location of the main breaker relative to the pool or tub.

This post? You are agreeing that single disconnects for each piece do not simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors. ????

Don't knock me please. I'm asking.

For a pool a tub or spa With several loads to it. Besides what is required for each load at the pool tub or spa. The question is. Is it mandatory to have ONE disconnect at the pool tub or spa that turns EVERYTHING off?

It keeps coming down to NO That it's one or more. BUT THEN SOMEONE SEAMS TO SAY YES. ONE. THAT SIMULTANEOUSLY DISCONNECTS ALL

sorry for the caps. Not shouting. Iphone cap locked. .

 

[kwired]

Wow. Thinking

If a ground rod was installed at that sub panel to go to the egc. Would that piece if Metal now be required to be bonded to the equipotential bonding grid ?

The metal at the equipment that needs bonding, would it need bonding if buried? Like a fully driven ground rod?

680.26(B):

(B) Bonded Parts.
The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment, or electrodes.

You will still have equipment grounding conductors run to items in the pool area or associated with the pool water, but if only a 20 amp circuit is supplying that equipment you only need a 12 AWG EGC back to the panel.

One must understand the reason we need the equipotential bonding first before this makes sense. The purpose of equipotential bonding is not to bring things to earth potential - but is to bring all metallic objects within reach of users of the pool to the same potential so that users will not be subjected to any voltage potential between any objects they can reach.

Take a underwater lighting shell that is connected to an equipment grounding conductor and a ladder to climb out of the water that has no electric power run to it. The EGC to the light could have a couple volts to true earth just because it is bonded to the grounded service conductor at some point( back at the service or source of a separately derived system). It is also ultimately bonded at the utility transformer to the POCO MGN primary line - which could introduce some voltage just because of voltage drop, weak connection somewhere in the system, etc. If the ladder is not bonded to the light shell - you have those couple of volts earlier mentioned between them, and standing on dry ground you may not notice anything if you touch both at same time, submerge yourself in pool water with chemicals used for sanitation and you have a pretty conductive path - for no more current then it takes to electrocute a person, and you may not even need to touch the ladder or the light shell - just put yourself between them and you may become part of a current path.

If we bond "everything" conductive in and around the pool we eliminate touch potential between those objects. You could be in/at the pool and at 1000 volts above true earth, but you are not within reach of true earth so it doesn't matter. You are like a bird on a high voltage line - isolated from other potential.

Holes in the equipotential system do cause accidents though. For get to bond a metal base for a diving platform and you possibly introduce "true earth potential" to a space that is otherwise equalized all around that metal base.

 

[ritelec]

Thank you

 

[ritelec]

680.26(B): You will still have equipment grounding conductors run to items in the pool area or associated with the pool water, but if only a 20 amp circuit is supplying that equipment you only need a 12 AWG EGC back to the panel.

One must understand the reason we need the equipotential bonding first before this makes sense. The purpose of equipotential bonding is not to bring things to earth potential - but is to bring all metallic objects within reach of users of the pool to the same potential so that users will not be subjected to any voltage potential between any objects they can reach.

Take a underwater lighting shell that is connected to an equipment grounding conductor and a ladder to climb out of the water that has no electric power run to it. The EGC to the light could have a couple volts to true earth just because it is bonded to the grounded service conductor at some point( back at the service or source of a separately derived system). It is also ultimately bonded at the utility transformer to the POCO MGN primary line - which could introduce some voltage just because of voltage drop, weak connection somewhere in the system, etc. If the ladder is not bonded to the light shell - you have those couple of volts earlier mentioned between them, and standing on dry ground you may not notice anything if you touch both at same time, submerge yourself in pool water with chemicals used for sanitation and you have a pretty conductive path - for no more current then it takes to electrocute a person, and you may not even need to touch the ladder or the light shell - just put yourself between them and you may become part of a current path.

If we bond "everything" conductive in and around the pool we eliminate touch potential between those objects. You could be in/at the pool and at 1000 volts above true earth, but you are not within reach of true earth so it doesn't matter. You are like a bird on a high voltage line - isolated from other potential.

Holes in the equipotential system do cause accidents though. For get to bond a metal base for a diving platform and you possibly introduce "true earth potential" to a space that is otherwise equalized all around that metal base.

Thanks again for the answers……… just stuck a second on this and went back to research……..

In reading 680.26, it mentions what to bond… I'm still hung up on if a sub panel (remote panel) is installed by the pool equipment.

Shouldn't that panel enclosure (if metal) be bonded and also the ground rod (that is metal) be bonded.

It is pool equipment right, it is metal……….

They have you bond everything, yet are they saying in (B) it's not required at the sub panel (remote panel)? even if that panel is 12 " away from everything else associated with the pool that is being bonded?

Sorry for revisiting this.

Thanks

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the pool panel is at a separate structure then you have a ground rod connected to the equipment grounding conductor. The neutral is isolated from the equipment grounding conductor and the grounding electrode conductor.

Yes, imo the pool panel should be bonded to the rest of the equipment. What "B" ios saying is that you do not have to run the equipotential bonding conductor back to a REMOTE panelboard-- ie- back at the main structure. I don't believe it is saying not to bond the pool panel located at the pool area

 

[ritelec]

Thanks Dennis, I was reading around and it looked like if the panel was "at" the pool area with equipment it would not get bonded…

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=65697

So I don't know…

was thinking to……. I think most time clocks have their enclosure to be plastic, but I would think some are metal also… That time clock metal enclosure would need the bond to it right?

If the remote panel "at" the pool location did not need enclosure bonding, what if it was a remote panel with time clocks in it? Would the addition of the clocks make it worthy of a bond?